447. UDL at Scale

The Universal Design for Learning framework is often adopted by individual faculty for particular courses. In this episode, Tom Tobin joins us to discuss the potential benefits associated with an institution-wide adoption of this framework.

Tom is an internationally recognized scholar, author and speaker on technology mediated education, especially copyright, evaluation of teaching practices, academic integrity, accessibility, and universal design for learning, which is a topic we’ll be talking about today. He helped found the University of Wisconsin Madison Center for Teaching, Learning, and Mentoring. Tom is on Ed Tech Magazine’s Influencers Dean’s List, and has been honored with the Wagner Leadership Award in Distance Learning Administration, and he is one of EduFlow’s global top 100 learning influencers. Tom serves on the boards of Advances in Online Education, The Online Journal of Distance Learning Administration, and the Oklahoma University Press: Teaching, engaging and thriving in higher ed series. We’re very glad that he’s made time to be with us with all these activities. His books include Evaluating Online Teaching, The Copyright Ninja, Reach Everyone, Teach Everyone: UDL in Higher Education, Going Alt-Ac: A Guide to Alternative Academic Careers, Implementing UDL in Irish Further Education and Training, and what we’ll be talking about today, UDL at Scale: Whole-Campus Universal Design for Learning, which is coming out this summer.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: The Universal Design for Learning framework is often adopted by individual faculty for particular courses. In this episode, we explore the potential benefits associated with an institution-wide adoption of this framework.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Thomas J Tobin. Tom is an internationally recognized scholar, author and speaker on technology mediated education, especially copyright, evaluation of teaching practices, academic integrity, accessibility, and universal design for learning, which is a topic we’ll be talking about today. He helped found the University of Wisconsin Madison Center for Teaching, Learning, and Mentoring. Tom is on Ed Tech Magazine’s Influencers Dean’s List, and has been honored with the Wagner Leadership Award in Distance Learning Administration, and he is one of EduFlow’s global top 100 learning influencers. Tom serves on the boards of Advances in Online Education, The Online Journal of Distance Learning Administration, and the Oklahoma University Press: Teaching, engaging and thriving in higher ed series. We’re very glad that he’s made time to be with us with all these activities. His books include Evaluating Online Teaching, The Copyright Ninja, Reach Everyone, Teach Everyone: UDL in Higher Education, Going Alt-Ac: A Guide to Alternative Academic Careers, Implementing UDL in Irish Further Education and Training, and what we’ll be talking about today, UDL at Scale: Whole-Campus Universal Design for Learning, which is coming out this summer. Welcome back, Tom.

Tom: Thank you, John and Rebecca, it’s a pleasure to be back on Tea for Teaching. Thank you for having me.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are… Tom, are you drinking tea with us today?

Tom: I am. I have some Pure Leaf Unsweetened Iced Tea. So that sound of ice cubes that you hear that’s my preferred form of my iced tea.

Rebecca: Sounds nice and refreshing.

John: And I have spring cherry green tea today. Given that we are apparently in spring, the snow has stopped at least for a few days, so we’re moving into spring here.

Rebecca: I have Lady Grey today.

John: Very good, one of my favorites. So we’ve invited you here today to discuss UDL at Scale. While most of our listeners are familiar with UDL to a greater or lesser extent, could you at least provide a brief overview of the UDL framework to help set the framework of the discussion?

Tom: Absolutely. Universal Design for Learning, or UDL, is a framework based on how we learn as human beings. So it’s based in neuroscience, fairly loosely, if I’m being honest. That when we learn anything, we have to activate three different chemical pathways in our brains. We have to have a reason to learn something. We have to have the content that we’re learning, and we have to be able to reinforce it, practice with it, tie it to other things that we already know. And so these three phases of the learning process, which are themselves a pretty good simplification of very complex chemical cascade in our neuroanatomy, they correspond to three different things that we can do as designers to help people to get started and stick with us when things get challenging, have the information to be able to learn it, and then to show what they know and practice with it. The neuroscientists at CAST in Boston, way back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, they discovered that if we give people one way to get started or take in information or practice, then we’re leaving out other ways that people could engage with that stuff. So what they said was, make more than one way, make multiple ways for people to get engaged, for people to take in information, and for people to practice, and people will choose which one seems best to them in the moment, and that helps the learning to stick. So Universal Design for Learning asks us, as instructors, developers, designers, to make multiple ways that people can get engaged, take in information, and show what they know.

Rebecca: Can you tell us the origin story of your new book, UDL at Scale, and its relationship with your previous work?

Tom: This is a very different book than my previous two books on Universal Design for Learning. When I did Reach Everyone, Teach Everyone: UDL in Higher Education with Kirsten Behling and then when I did the Universal Design for Learning in Further Education and Training for the Irish government, those were practical application based books. People were hungry to have, how do I do this in my own classroom or my own institutional design? That was at an individual level. People wanted to have the nuts and bolts of, what do I do when I’m designing a lesson or an activity or an assessment? One of the big challenges that you started to see over and over again is that whether it’s by law or by policy or by people adopting good ideas, we’ve been putting the burden of making things accessible on the shoulders only of instructors. And we also have not been giving them any release time or extra money or a graduate assistant, or we’ve not taken any work off their plates in order for them to be able to make their materials and engagements more inclusive and more accessible. So it’s not actually a wonder that only about 10% of instructors, wherever we look, have adopted inclusive design techniques of any kind, let alone a specific one, like the Universal Design for Learning Framework. Because of that, when I would talk with boards of trustees, college presidents, provosts, deans, campus leaders, and I would say, “You know that you have these legal requirements.” In the United States, we have the Americans with Disabilities Act. In Canada, it’s the Accessible Canada Act. Worldwide, there are laws that apply to the design of content and materials, and we’re not even doing that really well. So when I would talk with campus leaders, and I would say, you recognize that there is this requirement there, but there’s also an opportunity there to lower access barriers and keep our students with us at greater rates, helping with student persistence, student retention, their satisfaction as alumni. Everybody said, “yeah, those are great ideals, and you know, they’re part of our mission and our values, and we just don’t have the people or the time or the funds to be able to do that widely.” So I wrote the book UDL at Scale as an advice guide and a how-to-manual for campus leaders who think they don’t have the resources to actually get that stuff done. They do, and it’s actually when we think about lowering access barriers, not just in the classroom, not just putting the burden on instructor shoulders, but when we think about training everybody across all of our service touch points: the library, mental health counseling, academic counseling, IT, the media services team, you name it. Training all of those service touch points, to be a little bit more inclusive, to give a few more options, to lower accessibility barriers. It turns out that’s a really good financial decision. And so that was the genesis of the book.

John: In terms of that financial decision. What does the research tell us about the effect of UDL on student success, completion, retention, etc.?

Tom: Oh, this one’s great, because we actually do have research about the impact and effect of inclusive design changes, and every leader at every campus has been tasked with being a change agent. We want to move our institutions into spaces where we are making changes because they are driven by the needs of our employer bases, the needs of our students, the needs and vision of our institutions. So here’s the data, folks. Students, are five times more likely to earn a credential when they feel that they have a voice in their education, when they feel that they have a choice in how they move through their educational paths, when they feel a sense of belonging, that they are a part of the institution and its culture and its community, and rather than apart from it, when they feel like they have some agency, like they’re not just being told, “do this, do that, do the other.” That they have some say in how they move through their conversations with a college or a university, and when they have a sense of safety, that they are psychologically okay to be wrong, to explore, to get things wrong, to fail at things and come back to them. Those five things: voice, choice, belonging, agency, and safety. When students say “yes, I felt these things” during their educations, those students are five times more likely to persist and earn a credential with us. So when we think about all of the touchy feely aspects of it, that actually translates into money, that translates into tuition dollars, that translates into students not dropping out or stopping out as much as they otherwise might. And a lot of different ways that we can approach that have to do with access barriers, and we’ve talked about this in other books, but instructors aren’t the only teachers on our campus. Your media services people are teaching students how to engage with materials and content. Our librarians are teaching students how to discern good information and reliable and trustworthy information from slop that’s out there on the internet. and on and on and on, right? So our registrar is teaching students how to navigate the systems of the college or the university through the catalog and the various programs that we have on offer. So wherever we look at engagement with students, they are, in many cases, teaching engagements, and so we can design for those engagements in order to give people the kinds of choices that you heard about as we started our conversation. Multiple ways to get started and stick with it, multiple ways to take in the information that they’re learning about, and multiple ways to take action or express themselves once that they’re engaged with our service areas across all of our service touch points.

John: When you talk about people being five times more likely, is the benchmark of that students in high school or middle school and so forth, in terms of the probability of going to college and acquiring a degree? Because we do have over half of the students who enter college leaving with some sort of a credential, at least, on aggregate. So to get that number, it would seem like it would have to go back a bit to an earlier stage.

Tom: Oh, I’m actually not even talking about being that ambitious in our research. What I’m talking about is of all the current students who enroll right now, regardless of whether they are 18 years old and coming out of high school, or whether they’re 50 years old and coming back to re-skill. Out of all of those folks, you are correct. About half of them end up with a credential after 6, 7, 8, years usually. So the myth of the undergraduate who gets the degree in four years, that full-time student, is kind of a unicorn. At the same time, when we think about the 50% of students who drop out temporarily or stop out altogether, the number one reason why people don’t receive a credential is financial, “I can’t afford to continue now, or I can’t afford to continue at all.” And the research is fairly clear on this one, that the majority of people who stop out or drop out by financial reasons, it’s for $500 or less. So a lot of colleges and universities have now implemented micro-forgiveness programs, where if you owe less than $500 we’ll just write that off, and you keep going. And that’s an investment in the student, and it turns people into degree earners at far greater rates. But what’s the number two reason? If the number one reason is financial, what’s the number two reason why people stop out or drop out? It’s time, it’s the clock. We are all trying to put our educations into busy schedules. We have work responsibilities, caregiving responsibilities, military service, we just live far away from campus, whatever it is. If there’s a reason why people are busy and trying to put things together, and they don’t really fit all that well into the 24 hours of the day, those reasons are out there. So universal design for learning helps make processes go a little more smoothly. Helps students not to have to call back three times to get their question answered with IT. Helps for there to be less rework, and that’s actually one of the central arguments of the book, is that we’re actually making things a little bit more efficient for us as providers of services, and we’re also making things smoother and easier for our students in terms of process. We’ll talk about academic rigor later, but your question is an astute one, and the research that I’m citing in the book is fairly narrow, taking our existing pool of people who start, how many of them will finish?

Rebecca: Well, it’s certainly a compelling argument to implement, and we were talking about the time of not implementing. It costs a lot of time if we have inefficient and terrible processes. [LAUGHTER] We also talked about the burden on faculty trying to meet accessibility requirements, or introducing or rolling out UDL on their own. So if we think about institutional rollout, you can think about is there like aggregate benefits by rolling it out, but there’s also, seems like there might be some startup costs there too, in terms of time and effort. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Tom: Oh, Rebecca, that’s an astute question. Because right now, listeners, we’re recording this in late April of 2026 and in the United States, we just had a deadline to implement the Title II updates to the Americans with Disabilities Act. For those of you not familiar with that, by the end of April in 2026 we were all, colleges and universities, supposed to have all of the materials that we host in internet and in mobile formats comply with the Web Content Accessibility Group Standards. So there are 50 different standards for web hosted materials. And absolutely no one, and I mean no one, was going to be compliant as of the deadline. So the United States Department of Justice and Department of Education pushed that deadline back a year, and now it’s April of 2027. And it’s going to be April of 2027 and we’re going to be wringing our hands, going, “Oh my gosh, we’re not compliant still.” I guarantee that. So there’s a prediction for you, listeners. But Rebecca, your question has to do with that kind of situation. So when we, as colleges and universities, think about compliance with the law around accessibility, that means that that compliance usually falls on individuals’ shoulders. You, instructor of this biology course, you created all these materials, now it’s up to you to make them accessible. And when we think at that individual level, every individual has to be perfect in order for an institution to say that they are compliant. So if you’ve got one department that doesn’t get there, then the entire institution fails. So let’s turn that around, and when we think about Universal Design for Learning, when we’re applying it in an individual course, I actually want people to do a little bit less when we’re thinking about institution-level application. And one of the reasons why people are a little panicked now about those WCAG 50 standards is that we are asking communications professors and art historians and chemists to suddenly become experts in web design, and that’s not what the idea is about with that legal compliance issue. So when you think about people engaging in Universal Design for Learning at the individual level, the impact doesn’t have to be perfect. It doesn’t have to mean everyone does UDL to some perfect level where you get green check marks all throughout your learning management system with a particular tool. Imagine, and I’ve used this analogy before, it’s a good one for this conversation, too. Listeners, imagine that there are 20 steps to shining perfect, accessible content in your courses. There aren’t, but just for the sake of argument, let’s say there are 20 steps. Most places will spend some time, money, and effort to train a couple dozen people to get to step 18. And then we say, “You are our champions. Go train everyone else.” That’s where it breaks down, the “go train everyone else.” Other people are not being given extra time or time off, or they don’t get any support to actually focus their attention on these issues. What I wanted to do with Universal Design for Learning at Scale was to offer ways that we not get everyone to step 18, 19, 20, but to get absolutely everyone in the college or the university to step 2. What are some simple things that everyone does that become part of our everyday workflows? And so I’m indebted to our colleague Jordan Cameron at Kennesaw State University. Years ago, she came up with what she called “The Basic Four,” and that was if everybody did these four things, then some people on campus who were specialists could help with the really tough or knotty or detailed nuanced affordances, but everybody would do these four things. They would make alternative text for images that are displayed on websites in the learning management system and elsewhere. They would use semantic structure, so the heading level. putting things as titles in text-based documents. They would use captions or transcripts for video resources. And they would engage in inclusive procurement. They would engage in a process where, if the college or university is buying and supporting technology tools, they would only buy and support tools that were accessible and met those legal requirements. And if everybody did just those four things, it would, One, spread the workload around. Two, it would make sure that the expertise was available for the really challenging cases of accessible design. Three, it would allow everyone to adopt inclusive practices in a low-stakes way across their everyday workload. Meaning it’s not extra to do inclusive work, it’s actually part of our jobs, and it’s not a huge part of our jobs that we would need to fold in new things. So when we think about “the individual has to be perfect, but the collective only has to be good.” That’s what I’m aiming for. So when we think about individual courses with UDL, yes, institution-wide adoption is a little bit different than the sum of everyone just doing UDL in their own space. In fact, I don’t want to turn everyone into experts in the three principles and the nine guidelines and the 36 considerations of the Universal Design for Learning Framework. There should be people on campus who do that and know that. At the same time, everybody should have some real simple principles and practices that they can engage in that are consistent throughout all of our employees in a college or a university. So, excellent question. Thank you.

John: Have any institutions committed to a UDL-at-scale approach?

Tom: There have been, to my counting, 13 institutions who’ve actually gone from, “Hey, that’s a good idea” to “our institution is actually doing it.” I had the privilege and the pleasure of working with five of those. And I actually want to highlight one where I wasn’t the consultant, and they did it all on their own. This is Atlantic Technological University in Sligo, Ireland. And for listeners here in North America, they are a cross between what we would call a technical college, a community college, and a four-year undergraduate college. They do all of those things within their technological university mandate. What they discovered was that they were serving learners who lived all over the place in northwestern Ireland. So folks were living a 45-minute or an hour commute away by car, and a lot of their students were driving very long distances to be able to come to one of their many campuses. So what they did was they adopted an inclusive mindset, and of course, in Europe, they have the United Nations Strategic Development Goals, or SDGs. Inclusion is one of them, lowering access barriers is another one of those. So they used those as their guiding principles, and then they adopted Universal Design for Learning as a framework that allowed them to operationalize those aspirational principles. When we think about how that works, one of the first things that they did was convincing instructors and employees and staff members to adopt UDL. And of course, there were a lot of folks with their arms crossed saying, “I got along without this before. Why do I have to do this now? This seems like extra work.” The one change that they did, and I want to highlight this, their President and their board of directors said, “We want to be the most inclusive college or university in the country, and that’s a goal toward which we are all headed. We are going to put resources toward this in terms of time, people, and money,” but they didn’t do the next step that you might suggest. You might think that the next step was, “Here’s our plan, and now everybody follow it.” Their next step was to move away from “you must,” to move away from mandates and compliance and move into support. They said, “Here’s the goal. We want everybody to achieve these kinds of inclusive practices in your support area, in your department, in your study, and you tell us what it’s going to take to get to that goal, and we’ll support you.” So what happened from a top-down level was that the support that people were asking for was very different in different places. Some places wanted time, some places wanted funding, some places wanted a couple of experts to come in and help them think about things, and the senior leaders at that institution did those things. Did they do them perfectly, exactly as asked? No. At the same time, that listening attitude, that attitude of “this is a service that we’re providing to you,” it was great. When instructors would think about, “Oh, I want to make some of my content more universally designed,” and they would go talk with their teaching center folks or their learning designers, the learning designer would say, “Oh, yeah, we can teach you how to do this, or we can do this along with you.” And so that wasn’t perceived as, “Oh, here’s another law that applies to me, and now I have to do things differently.” It was perceived by instructors as, “Oh, the whole place is moving in this direction, and now this is a service on which I can rely.” Doing that actually spread the workload around and made it a slow and incremental change where people could ask questions and voice concerns and they got listened to. So that was a wonderful way that the folks at ATU actually implemented Universal Design for Learning. So now it’s part of their policy manual. It’s part of their mission and vision, and it’s also part of just the way they do things, because they actually shifted the culture.

Rebecca: What I’m hearing you say, Tom, is that the leadership at the institution modeled this practice by rolling out UDL in a UDL way, and gave folks some agency and some choice.

Tom: Yeah, students are not the only people who are five times more likely to stick with something when they feel they have a voice, choice, belonging, agency and safety, correct? So you’re making a connection, Rebecca, that I think listeners, you can also make. We as employees, whether we are part of the leadership team, whether we’re instructors and faculty members, whether we are service members and staff members. We are also learners, we are also human beings who want to have a clear reason why we’re doing the thing. We want to be able to get access to the information and the content that we’re going to use, and we want to be able to take action in a way that is meaningful for us. So we absolutely can UDL the process of adopting UDL. Yes.

John: Now, on your first book on UDL, you advocated a plus one approach to UDL adoption, and I think that’s something that many people have picked up on as making it a little bit more feasible or easier to manage. Do you make a similar suggestion at the institutional level?

Tom: It’s an unfair question, John, because I didn’t predict when I wrote, Reach Everyone, Teach Everyone with Kirsten Behling, that my idea of approaching Universal Design for Learning, not as here’s three principles that turn into nine guidelines that turn into 36 considerations that we should just approach that as plus one thinking, if there’s one way for an engagement to happen, now make one more way. That was always meant to be a starting point for UDL practice, not the entirety of everyone’s understanding of it. And I’ve been very honored and pleased to see that that plus one idea has really taken root. People know plus one as a way to start Universal Design for Learning, because it’s simple, it’s easy to understand and it’s easy to get your brain around it, and it also is small. Take one action, try one thing, do one experiment, and see what happens. Now you’re asking me to predict which of the ideas from my new book are going to take off because they are so simple or so resonant with people that they’re just going to latch on to it. I don’t know which one of those ideas is going to take off. If I had to put forward two candidates, though, one of them, we just talked about, shift from compliance to support. It seems like a very small and philosophical change. At the same time, changing the messaging around the activities that you’re doing as an institution, changes people’s perception of what those things are. It goes from “Oh, this is required of me,” to “Oh, this is a service on which I can rely.” And shifting from compliance to support narratives, those are the kinds of things that actually shift cultures and change people’s minds. So that’s one. And then a second one, I have a diagram in the book. Listeners, you can’t see it, but I’ll describe it very briefly. Think about a rectangle that is wider than it is tall. Over on the left-hand side, we’ll put “beginner” at the bottom of that. We’ll put “proficient” in the middle, and then we’ll put “approaching expert” on the other side. That’s a timeline of the learning process when people are beginners, when they’ve got a few ideas, when they’re getting it, and they’re almost experts with us. Now draw a line that starts at the very bottom, over by beginner, and goes to the very top, near proficient. We’ve just divided our rectangle into a growing and a diminishing triangle. The diminishing triangle is UDL, Universal Design for Learning, and it’s designed UDL. This is where we, as instructors, designers, developers, facilitators, when people are beginners, we want to design almost all of the boundaries and the possibilities for our learners. We tell them what to read, what to look at, what to do as exercises, so that they will get all of the foundational information. And then, as that triangle gets smaller and smaller over time, we start taking our safeguards and guardrails and left and right boundaries away. And then, by the time people are almost experts, we’re not giving them hardly any guidance or structure, we’re asking them to do. Now, the triangle that’s increasing over time, it starts out almost at nothing when people are beginners. That’s tool use. This is using AI tools, this is using calculators, this is any kinds of tools that people can use to support their learning. When they’re beginners, we don’t want them using any tools. We want them to learn things the hard way, the manual way, the long way, so that they actually struggle with and get the foundational concepts and the practice that we’re doing. Then by the time they’re proficient in the middle there, tool use grows and we start saying, “Okay, now here use tools to help you learn.” This is telling people not to use artificial intelligence to summarize their reading, but to use AI to make study questions about the reading and to use AI to help the learning process itself, but then by the time they get to be proficient, and, after that, when they get to be expert with us, then we say, “Okay, go ahead and use the tools to skip some steps,” because we’re going to use those AI tools, perhaps, to do easier or introductory level kinds of things, so that we can use our human brains to start working on more nuanced or more complex thinking processes. Now, readers, take one more line up at the top of this rectangle, start and draw a rising line from left to right, and we’re going to put one lopsided triangle on top. That is agentic UDL. And it has to go in lock step as our designed UDL diminishes over the learning process, we have to start replacing it with learner agency. We tell our learners not go read this thing and do this activity, but we say, “What kinds of resources do you need or want now? What kinds of activities would help you to learn better on this?” And we become more guides rather than dictators of the things. So when we think about that lopsided house, my hope is that that diagram will take off, because it’s a simple way to think about the entire learning process and what goes into it. And spoiler alert, listeners, it’s fractal. That learning process can happen over the course of an individual lesson, over the course of a unit, over the course of an entire class offering, over the course of an entire credential. So we can go through that process at lots of different scales. So awesome question, and even though it was unfair, I do have two candidates for the things that I hope will take off.

Rebecca: But I think you also reiterated the idea that the plus one can help an institution get started, because it’s iterative, it changes over time, it’s scaffolded, it’s all the things that you’ve been describing.

Tom: And that’s 100% on purpose. I try to offer ideas that are easy to put your brain around, and then get really nuanced and complex when you start implementing them, because you have the agency and the choice to be able to do that design in a way that works well for you and for your learners.

Rebecca: In addition to the support model that you’ve been talking about, as institutions begin to commit to UDL, can you talk a little bit about what kinds of incentive structures they may want to consider to help faculty employees stay aligned with this framework?

Tom: Ooh, can I turn your question inside out a bit, Rebecca? You talked about incentive structures. And incentives are things that we give people when they’re doing things that they don’t normally do. What I want to do is I want to make Universal Design for Learning just part of our everyday workflows. So an incentive would mean “I’m going to pay you extra to do some extra thing” or “I’m going to give you release time, because this is hard and you need some time to do it.” Initially, yes, those things need to be in place because it’s different from the way that we do things now. The goal for me, though, is that we’re not creating incentives that mentally label UDL as extra or on top of the work that we should be doing. So I want to turn the question a little inside out and say that my advice to everyone who’s a campus leader is the very first thing you can do is to put Universal Design for Learning into job descriptions for new hires and into the performance evaluation process. Make Universal Design for Learning expected of people who come into the institution as new employees, and make UDL practices part of the measurable criteria by which people’s jobs are assessed. That’s not exactly an incentive program. And if you just put them into the job descriptions and new hire offerings without actually training people on what that looks like, then you’re setting them up for failure. So having the training available before those changes happen, having an opportunity for people to be assessed on Universal Design for Learning once or twice through the cycle without it counting, so that they get the feedback, but if they haven’t been doing well with it, that they get an opportunity to say, “Oh, wait, I probably need to go attend the workshops or get some coaching or work with a mentor on this.” But I’m a big fan of letting people fail without consequences.

Rebecca: Jeez, that sounds like another UDL principle being highlighted right here.

Tom: It’s not technically in the UDL guidelines, but it does absolutely show up in guideline eight, and we can nerd out about that later. [LAUGHTER] But listeners, what we’re thinking about here is when we think about giving people the opportunity to try things out, work with them in their own fashion, but also holding them accountable, like accountability is a key driver to scaling up any change at any institution, and with Universal Design for Learning, it’s no different. The difference here is that I want to suggest give people an opportunity to have a minute to get in touch with and apply these ideas and then assess them, but don’t ding them if their assessment is poor. Say, “Okay, this didn’t work,” or “You need more time on this,” or “You need this a different way.” Let’s work with what actually is going to help move the needle here. I also want to share, the bar should be incredibly low. We’re not looking for a 100% or a green score in the learning management system on Blackboard Ally, where it’s checking all the accessibility. Universal Design for Learning and accessibility are actually different. Accessibility just means that that’s sort of the floor that’s where everybody should be doing this as a matter of course, and Universal Design for Learning is a framework that allows us to move beyond just what’s compliant. So excellent question, and thank you for letting me play with it.

John: And by making it part of the culture of the institution and part of the regular expectations, then it does build in a little bit of loss aversion, which is a behavioral economics principle, which suggests that the threat of losing a job [LAUGHTER] by not doing it might have much more of an impact than the possibility of getting incentives for doing something. That’s perhaps an overly harsh way of suggesting that.

Tom: Listeners you heard John say that, and not me, right? [LAUGHTER] But I’m also not a behavioral economist, fairly, though.

John: But one, point though, that I think is worth at least discussing is that many faculty become concerned about new initiatives that are initiated by their current administration in the institution, when institutions have a fair amount of turnover at the top. How can institutions build this into the culture of the institution in a way that is going to persist after the administration turns over?

Tom: Ooh, excellent question. There’s a very short phrase in higher education that is meant to be ironic or satiric. It’s called “new provost, new priorities.” So every few years, a new senior leader comes in and they say, “We were doing this, and now we’re going to do that.” And in some institutions, it changes every year or so, right? The campus leaders go to a leadership conference, they hear about the next big new thing, and suddenly the funding and the winds change. It’s a reasonable response if you’ve been there long enough to kind of fold your arms across your chest and say, “I’m just going to wait until the winds change again and change again, and maybe I won’t have to actually do an awful lot with all of these big new priorities.” So there’s an individual and a collective way to respond. Individual way is to play to people’s own interests. And we’ve talked about this in other conversations and books. It’s still true. Ask people where they’re already finding challenges or gaps. Where is it that you give the directions for an activity and you get an email 400 times from your students, all asking the same clarifying question about the direction? Where is it that you give a splendid lecture, and then everybody gets that concept wrong on the exam, you’ve got to reteach. Where are those places where people are already going to do a little work to redesign or think again about how they’re approaching a particular idea, concept or process? Those are always good places to start thinking in a more inclusive way, because you can lower some barriers, not only for the learners, but also for yourself. So when we think about UDL, the selling point of UDL for individuals is that a little bit of effort now actually saves you a lot of effort later. And you know where you’re putting in all of that repeated effort that just seems to be a time sink. So in your own career, think about that. And then when we think about, at an institutional level, if we’re going to have leadership change over, there are three things we can do right away, and this is all chapter five, people. One, make sure that you are enshrining Universal Design for Learning in your policy manual, this takes the longest amount of time. When you’re involved in shared governance, things do not move fast. But if inclusive design is actually part of the identity of the institution and it’s part of the mission that we’re on. Folks at Greensboro College in North Carolina actually did adopt this first into their mission, and worked back from that into practice and into making it part of their everyday work. Two, when we think institutionally, we actually talked about this as well. Putting Universal Design for Learning into those job descriptions and performance evaluations means that you’re changing culture by fiat. And John, you said it in a different way than I would have [LAUGHTER] in terms of risk or loss aversion. But when we think about risk, we can think about risk in negative ways and positive ways. So the negative risk is, “Oh, if I don’t do this, I might lose my job, or I won’t get my promotion.” But the positive risk aspect of it is, if we do this, then we are likely to have more students stick with us. If we do this, we are more likely to have fewer students asking the same question over and over and over again or tripping over the same stumbling blocks intellectually or practically. And then the third thing that we can think about when we’re working at scale is that institutional culture, the people who are there the longest typically aren’t the senior leaders, it’s typically the folks in operations. So the folks who are running the departments and the support units, we’ve got the institutional memory. So in trying Universal Design for Learning in your practices at your unit level, put it in the handbook, put it in the manual, put it in the new employee onboarding that you do. That’s where it’s going to stick, because provosts and presidents come and go, it’s a truism in higher education. And the folks who are here for the long haul, Universal Design for Learning helps us do our jobs more efficiently, with less stress, less anxiety, and it helps our students to be more successful. It does require effort and work, and to the extent that we can make time, put money, assign people to those tasks, the better. But even if we don’t have a lot of any of those three things, we can still shift how people act.

John: And if students are learning more, it tends to be much more enjoyable for faculty.

Tom: Wow, I didn’t put that in the book. Seriously, I didn’t put that in the book because one of the biggest arguments that we have for Universal Design for Learning is that it helps students to learn more effectively, and I guarantee you that that is not an argument that moves anyone to open their budget. So this book, like I was saying at the very beginning, is a very different kind of argument to the one that I have produced in other books. In other books, we’re talking about social justice, we’re talking about efficiency, we’re talking about efficacy for the students. In this book, we’re talking about, “Yeah, this actually makes sense, because it means that we’re spending our money more effectively and wisely, and helps us with reducing rework and making processes more efficient.” This is language that I’m not used to using all the time, and it’s language that most campus leaders are very used to hearing.

Rebecca: It’s important to have campus leadership on board to make this a cultural shift, but it doesn’t have to start there. It can start from anyone at a university who’s committed to this work. Do you have some strategies that individuals might use, collectively or individually, to start to nudge an administration to consider adopting the UDL framework for the entire institution?

Tom: We’re actually heading in that direction in our conversation already, aren’t we?

Rebecca: We are.

Tom: So if you’ve got a grassroots effort where you can show that Universal Design for Learning actually does have an effect on student retention, or more tuition coming in, or fewer people dropping out. Collect those data and share that information with your senior leaders and share it with language that they understand. That is task number one. Talk about its impact on the budget for your unit. Or if it’s not a budget impact, talk about how, instead of putting out little tiny fires over and over and over again, that adopting UDL has meant that you’ve addressed some regular concerns and gaps that happen every day, and that’s actually freed up your staff to go after bigger or more complex challenges and goals. So it actually does help us to shift how we spend our time. Listeners, I don’t know what area you work in, in a college or a university, I guarantee that you have the story of the thing that you spend all your time doing once a year. So for example, I worked with some colleagues at D’Youville University in Buffalo, New York, and the head of their Disability Services Office. She was one of the champions who went through a process of learning more about Universal Design for Learning. She shared that on average, she was chasing 70 plus students every semester because they had to actually actively request their accommodations every semester, it’s not just like you get your accommodations and then you’re good for four more years or six more years. So every semester, she would be sending out email messages to people’s .edu address saying, “Hey, quick reminder, you have to request this every semester.” And she spent literally 80 to 120 hours of her own time, and then 80 to 120 hours of the four people in her office chasing down these requests. And then they made one UDL change. When people initially sought a disability accommodation, they asked the students, “We’re going to send stuff to your campus address. Would you be willing to share your cell phone number with us so we could text you? We promise we won’t spam you.” 90 plus percent of the students on intake shared their cell numbers, and when she sent out the reminder, “Hey, you got to do this every semester,” it went to their email address and it went to their cell phone number, if they had shared it. They literally went from chasing 70 or more students over the course of weeks every semester to two. Two people needed reminders more than once. So making that UDL choice about giving people more than one way that they can get the information helped them to actually reduce a huge time barrier for their staff, and that meant that their disability service staff weren’t playing phone tag and email tag with people, but they were able to actually do the work that they were hired to do, which is helping students to overcome barriers in the classroom environment. So when we think about convincing the administration, show them examples like that. “Hey, we saved you a whole bunch of money, and now we can work on more complex challenges with the same number of staff members.” That’s an argument that a provost is going to listen to. So show that it works and use language that they understand: budget, retention, persistence.

John: We always end by asking, what’s next? So what’s next for you, Tom?

Tom: My focus is always on quality in higher education. So I’ve got two new books coming out after UDL at Scale, which is coming out in August of 2026. Sometime in 2027 I have Evaluating Teaching in the Digital Era with Annie Taylor and Jean Mandernach. Then in 2028, it’ll be Peer Observation Made Practical with Lauren Barbeau and Claudia Cornejo Happel. And sometime in 2026 or ‘27, I worked with Chris Hromalik at the SUNY System, and we have an article coming out on Universal Design for Learning in Project Management. Plus, I am now a full time professional advisor, so I’m enjoying working with colleges and universities on really complex problems. Listeners, if you go to my website, it’s just ThomasJTobin.com, there’s a free UDL book there on further education and training, John mentioned it in our opener, and you can download that. And if you’ve got a wicked problem that you’re trying to figure out that has to do with the quality of our teaching or access to education, I’d love to hear from you. So thank you again for having me on the program. I love Tea for Teaching. I’m a regular listener. I’ve got my Tea for Teaching mug, and I’ll look forward to where this all goes down the line.

Rebecca: Well, thanks so much, Tom, we always enjoy talking to you and brainstorming how to make some good institutional change.

John: Yes, It’s great talking to you again, and I’m looking forward to seeing you at one of the next conferences coming up.

Tom: Yep, and listeners, if we cross paths in three dimensions, just look for the tall man with white hair, glasses and a giant black mustache and say hello, I’ll be glad to talk with you. Thanks everybody.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing Assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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446. Teaching Neurodivergent College Students

Neurodivergent students experience challenges in traditional lecture settings. In this episode, Jennifer Pusateri joins us to discuss strategies to reduce these challenges while supporting and leveraging the strengths that neurodivergent students bring to our classrooms.

Jennifer is the Senior Universal Design Consultant at The University of Kentucky and has served as the co-chair of the international UDL in Higher Education Network. She is a member of the CAST National Faculty and is the author of Transform Your Teaching with Universal Design for Learning: Six Steps to Jumpstart Your Practice. Her newest book, A Practical Guide to Teaching Neurodivergent College Students has recently been released by Harvard Education Press.

Show Notes

  • Pusateri, Jennifer L. (2026). A Practical Guide to Teaching Neurodivergent College Students. Harvard Education Press.
  • Brown, T. E. (2013). A new understanding of ADHD in children and adults: Executive function impairments. Routledge.
  • CAST UDL Guidelines
  • Mary-Ann Winklemes – TILT Higher Ed
  • Tom Tobin, Lillian Nave, and Jennifer Pusateri (2025). UDL 3.0. Tea for Teaching podcast. Episode 395. May 28.
  • Mary-Ann Winklemes (2023). Transparency in Learning and Teaching. Tea for Teaching podcast. Episode 290. May 24.
  • Viji Sathy and Kelly Hogan (2020). Structured for Inclusion. Tea for Teaching podcast. Episode 153. September 16.

Transcript

John: Neurodivergent students experience challenges in traditional lecture settings. In this episode, we discuss strategies to reduce these challenges while supporting and leveraging the strengths that neurodivergent students bring to our classrooms.
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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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Rebecca: Our guest today is Jennifer Pusateri. Jennifer is Jennifer is the Senior Universal Design Consultant at The University of Kentucky and has served as the co-chair of the international UDL in Higher Education Network. She is a member of the CAST National Faculty and is the author of Transform Your Teaching with Universal Design for Learning: Six Steps to Jumpstart Your Practice. Her newest book, A Practical Guide to Teaching Neurodivergent College Students has recently been released by Harvard Education Press. Welcome back, Jennifer.

Jennifer: Delighted to be here with you all.

John: Thanks for joining us again, and today’s teas are:… Jennifer, are you drinking tea?

Jennifer: I am and I don’t normally drink tea. So, I’m in central Kentucky, and I will tell you, this is the most beautiful time of year in central Kentucky. It is so green and lush with the blue grass and the horse farms and all of these rolling hills. However, [LAUGHTER] that means it’s also very allergy-ish at the moment, and so I woke up a little froggy today, so I’m drinking Throat Coat tea.

Rebecca: Hopefully that’ll get the job done.

Jennifer: We’ll see.

John: And Rebecca?

Rebecca: I have an English breakfast tea today.

John: And I have a ginger peach green tea today.

Rebecca: Nice. So we invited you here today to discuss A Practical Guide to Teaching Neurodivergent College Students. Can you tell us about the origin of this book?

Jennifer: Yeah. So I’ve been telling folks that I wrote the book I wish my professors had read, [LAUGHTER] because I was not what you would call a great student when it comes to my undergrad. In fact, I opened the book with a screenshot of my actual transcript from my sophomore year of college, and it’s not great… 1.761 GPA I got that semester, which is fantastic. I just didn’t know what I didn’t know. I didn’t know how to learn. I didn’t know what worked best for me, and I did not know at that time that I was ADHD. I was actually diagnosed a little bit later in that year, after being like, “this is not working, like something’s not right here.” My younger daughter is graduating high school and ideally entering college this fall. And I was kind of thinking about, “man, what would I like for her professors to know about teaching neurodivergent students.” She, like Mom, is also ADHD. And I was just kind of hoping that eventually instructors will kind of have a better understanding of what neurodivergence looks like in our students, and that it’s not entirely a deficit.

John: I suppose, before we get too far into the discussion, we should talk a little bit about how you define neurodivergence, just to make sure everyone is on the same starting point.

Jennifer: Yeah, for sure, that’s actually a really good place, I think, to start. Sometimes people balk a little bit about this being a little boring, but I think it’s super interesting. So a neurodivergent brain is a brain that functions differently or outside of what the dominant society says is normal. There is, of course, no such thing as a normal brain. That’s not really how it works. But depending on the society that you’re a part of, there are some expectations for what people assume to be a normal brain. So neurodivergence would be whatever falls outside of that. So if you want to make it a little more clear, from its beginnings, honestly, the word itself was used to describe autistic folks, but also now there’s kind of a larger umbrella, recognizing that there are so many different ways to learn, and that there are so many things that affect the way our brain works when learning. Now we’re including things like ADHD, dyslexia. Some people are including things like depression, anxiety, OCD, and trauma, because we absolutely know that those have an impact on the way our brain works. So, that’s kind of the broad understanding of neurodivergence.

Rebecca: What proportion of college students might fit under this umbrella of neurodivergent.

Jennifer: This depends, I guess, on what you recognize as counting as neurodivergent. What I mean to say is that there’s no one definition of neurodivergence. It’s not a medical term. Some people include certain groups, and some don’t. I tend to use a broader umbrella when describing neurodivergent folks, and the reason that is important when thinking about kind of what percentage are we looking at? So I’ll start with ADHD being one of the most prevalent, about 14% of undergrads, and this is using data from spring of 2025, have ADHD. About 6% of them are dyslexic. Autism is around 3%. Those numbers all seem a little low to me, but that’s what we have from the data. I personally include, as we just talked about, things like depression, anxiety, OCD, and trauma, and so this is where our numbers start to get a little bit bigger. So when we’re looking at our undergrads in the US, 27% identify as being treated for depression, 36% of students report anxiety, and OCD is about 6%, trauma is about 8%. Of course, we don’t just add all of those numbers up. That’s not really how that works. We do know that many, many students who are neurodivergent also have depression and anxiety as well. So like if we just counted, let’s just assume that if we included everything else, everyone else is represented already, we’re going to pretend, underneath depression and anxiety, then that highest number is 36%. So we’re looking at roughly a third of our students have brains that are working in a way that’s outside of what the dominant society considers to be normal, and that’s a lot, a third of our students. That’s a huge amount of students., when we really sit down and think about it.

Rebecca: So one of the things that you indicated in your own story is that you didn’t know that you were ADHD when you were a student. So, we know that there’s wildly under-reported cases because students don’t want to disclose for a wide range of reasons, or they simply don’t know, even though you’re kind of identifying one-third, it could be much bigger. [LAUGHTER]

Jennifer: It really could. And something else that we know for sure is that everyone that needs a diagnosis does not have a diagnosis. There’s a lot of reasons that someone couldn’t get a diagnosis. It costs a lot of money, it requires people to take time off work to take their kids to appointments and do things like that. So there are some pretty significant barriers already just in receiving a diagnosis. So we know that that absolutely exists. And then we also know students are arriving at college, and many are choosing not to disclose that they have a disability of any kind. And so we know for sure there are a lot who are falling through the cracks because they’re either not requesting or not receiving the accommodations that they probably need.

John: And along those lines, I would expect the under-reporting would be more common among low-income students and students for whom getting that documentation would be a bit more challenging.

Jennifer: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and I don’t have that research or data on hand, but I know that it exists, and that’s pretty much what it says. And then we also think about things like cultural norms. There are some cultures that are not going to see and understand things like ADHD or autism in the same way that others would. They may not even understand that this is something they need to be thinking about with their children, and then therefore they arrive at college and they don’t have the diagnosis that they need.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit about the strengths that neurodivergent students bring into our classes.

Jennifer: Yeah, man, there are so many strengths, and this is one of my favorite things to talk about. In the book, I have a diagram where I’ve kind of made a three-way Venn diagram overlapping the strengths of our ADHD students, our autistic students, and our dyslexic students, because the strengths overlaps so much, which I think is really interesting. But some of the things you would typically think about… students who are ADHD are going to be maybe a little more spontaneous, perhaps more energetic. They often are very self aware. And then they’re also going to overlap with autism, especially when it comes to hyper focus. Hyper focus just being that you can focus your attention in on something that you are interested in or care about in a very significant way, to the detriment of other things, like having to use the restroom, or drink water [LAUGHTER] or whatever. That hyper focus really is a big piece of ADHD and autism. We also see ADHDers and autistic folks being very justice and fairness oriented, which I think is super interesting as well. And then when we think about dyslexia, individuals with dyslexia often have more of a visual thinking pattern, like they’re thinking in pictures. Often that can mean that they have a completely different way of understanding and sharing the information that they’re learning about. So they may be able to put together a really good or really helpful diagram that someone else wouldn’t think of, someone else without dyslexia may not even consider or not even be able to place together, but they just seem to have this very big strength when it comes to dyslexia and having things like visuals. So that also overlaps a little bit. We have a lot of out of box thinking when it comes to folks with dyslexia, also ADHD, and then that visual-spatial awareness or reasoning we also see in folks who have autism. In this diagram I have in the book, I have the center in the middle, which is all three of these bigger categories of neurotypes, ADHD, autism, and dyslexia. And I’m listing in there five different overlapping strengths, and I think these are super interesting when it comes to higher ed because if you think about these, and I’m going to share them here in just a second, think about them in terms of hiring a grad student to help with something like qualitative research. So here are the strengths: they’re very interest driven, they’re good at problem solving, they’re excellent at pattern seeking and pattern recognition, creativity, and curiosity. So when I think about someone who could be a qualitative researcher, a graduate student, perhaps, those are the qualities I want. I want someone who’s picking up on patterns that I maybe don’t see, someone who’s very strongly driven by their interest in the things that they care about, and who’s also really good at curiosity, that’s kind of driving them along to understand better the things that they’re researching. I really do see a lot of these strengths as being very helpful in higher education, especially when we think about things like research.

John: And one of the areas you discuss in the book is executive functioning, and I think most people have at least a general sense of that term, but could you define it a little bit more precisely, and also maybe talk a little bit about what can interfere with students’ executive functioning in our classrooms.

Jennifer: So executive function, it’s basically just this grouping of skills and processes that monitor and regulate all kinds of important things, so things like focus and attention, things like our emotions, regulating emotion, organization, time management, prioritization, those kinds of things, goal setting. And there’s a lot more. There are a lot more pieces. And the problem with executive functioning and defining it is, just like neurodivergence, there’s no one definition. There are lots of definitions. And so I choose to use a specific one in this book, because the model I use, which is Thomas Brown’s model, really focuses in on the emotions piece and also the processing piece. And those are things that I don’t always see in executive functioning models, and I think those are some pieces that maybe have been missed a little bit in higher ed, so I really like that model for that reason.

Rebecca: What can we do in the classroom to help support executive function. 10:53

Jennifer: I think a big one that a lot of people think of up front is focused attention and motivation. In my book, I have broken down these sort of challenges into six categories to make it a little bit easier. It can be overwhelming. There’s so many pieces, so many things that executive functioning touches that I wanted to group it a little bit. So the first group is focus, attention, and motivation. That might mean that students who are neurodivergent are going to have a difficult time sitting and passively listening for long periods of time… more than 10 minutes, maybe. So that may be an issue. It also might be things like motivation. I’ll speak for myself. I am not motivated by things I don’t care about. If I have to do things I don’t care about, perhaps I have to take a class that’s outside of my major, or is a general ed class, or whatever, it’s going to be like pulling teeth to get me to do the things in that class, because it’s something I don’t care about. So those are the kinds of things we might see when it comes to focus, attention, and motivation of students having difficulties. Another big piece is organization and structure. A lot of times, neurodivergent folks have difficulty seeing these structures that kind of underlie everything. One of the things I think about is reading a journal article. Someone who’s neurodivergent may read several journal articles but still not see that there’s sort of an underlying structure or order or grouping or whatever of this is how research reads. So in my field, education, research tends to be laid out the same, like it’s always going to start with an introduction, and you’re going to move to this next piece, and then you’re going to move to this next piece. And if that’s not clearly stated or laid out, sometimes it’s difficult for neurodivergent folks to guess that or to see that. And then other things like time management, prioritization. These are things we see all the time with all of our students, but even more so with our neurodivergent students, struggling with things like turning in assignments on time or planning enough time ahead so that they can study or write or whatever to turn something in by a certain deadline. So, those are things we see in a lot of our students, which also brings me to another thought, that we know for sure that undergraduates are of an age where their prefrontal cortex, part of their brain, is not fully developed yet. That doesn’t happen until about age 25 or even 30 for some folks. We can pretty much guess that all of our undergrads are going to struggle at some point with executive functioning. That’s one of the things I really am trying to kind of get across in this book too, is that when you’re setting up your course and your instruction to support neurodivergent students, you’re actually doing that to support all of your students. And those things end up being really useful for many students, in addition to those who are neurodivergent. And then we can also think about other pieces, like sensory and emotional regulation. Those are kind of overlooked often in a higher ed academic setting, but are really important to students being able to work effectively and efficiently without getting overwhelmed or overstimulated.

Rebecca: So you’ve outlined some of the struggles that students might have related to executive function. What can instructors do to help support these students to overcome these struggles?

Jennifer: Well, one of the things we can think about is if we know that we’re going to have many students who are going to struggle with, let’s say, focused attention and motivation, that they’re going to have a difficult time paying attention for more than, I don’t know, 10 minutes or so, then knowing that up front, we can really think about the way that we’re structuring our lectures, or our in-class meeting time, so that we’re breaking that up a little bit with smaller periods, or little bursts of activity, whatever that might be. There are lots of things that you can build in. So you might lecture for 10 minutes or so and then pause, and you can have everyone do a quick one minute reflection writing, or they could even just do a simple turn and talk with their neighbor, because when they pause from the passive listening, and you do something active, it almost is like it resets the timer. As an ADHDer, I have this like internal timer of about how long I can sit and listen and not do something. [LAUGHTER] Stopping after about 10 minutes, doing a quick reflection, or turn and talk with someone next to me, resets that timer. Personally, as an ADHDer, I have this, like, internal timer of about how long I can sit and listen and not do something. [LAUGHTER] And so, like, stopping after about 10 minutes, doing a quick reflection or turn and talk with someone next to me resets that timer now. And now you got another 10 minutes or so where I’m able to really stay focused and listen and engage with what you’re talking about, and then that timer runs out again. As an instructor, if we kind of know that, we can build in these pieces throughout our lectures or even just our course meeting times. And that’s going to be useful, obviously, for our neurodivergent students, but if we’re building in things like reflections or turn and talk or whatever, there’s a lot of research that doing those things in the midst of a lecture is going to help with student memory retention and understanding of the things that they’re talking about. So again, we see this theme come back, that when we build in things that are going to support our neurodivergent students, we are actually supporting all of our students.

John: I was thinking that as you were talking about some of the issues with executive functioning, because issues of student engagement are pretty common and go far beyond just a third of our students. It’s really nice that these approaches can be useful for everyone. So in addition to providing structure and taking breaks and engaging in active learning activities, you also recommend throughout the book using a UDL approach to reduce some of the challenges that neurodivergent students face in our classrooms. Can you provide some examples of the benefits of providing multiple means of engagement, representation, and action and expression?

Jennifer: Definitely. This is, I think, one of the biggest ones. Of course, the UDL guidelines were updated in 2024 and we used to call the bullet points, checkpoints, but now we call them considerations in UDL. Consideration 7.1 which is in the welcoming interests and identities category or guideline says, “optimize choice and autonomy,” and this one for neurodivergent people, is key. An ADHDers brain, an autistic student’s brain, is an interest-driven brain, and so, when we can provide students with the opportunity to choose something within their learning path, maybe that’s the topic for a paper or a project or something, that gives them the opportunity to choose something that kind of aligns with some of their special interests, or things they are interested in otherwise, and by doing that, that’s going to increase their motivation, that’s going to increase their engagement, and they’re actually going to probably produce better work for you than if they did not have that choice. So, building in that choice and autonomy is a game changer for a lot of neurodivergent folks. When we’re thinking about representation, there are several in there, but the one I was thinking about earlier is Consideration 2.5 and so this one is in the language and symbols guideline, and it’s “illustrate through multiple media.” We know that a lot of neurodivergent folks really respond well and tend to learn well and understand better from visuals. So anytime we can include a graphic organizer, or we can include a clear diagram or a visual or a video, something visual that goes along with more of the text-based things that we’re learning, is going to be super useful for neurodivergent students. So that’s my suggestion for representation. And then when it comes to that action and expression chunk, we’re going to think about the bottom right guideline in blue, and that one is now called “strategy development” (it used to be called “executive function”). Consideration 6.3 asks us to think about organizing our information and resources. To me, as an instructor, this reminds me, if I just give them the things, but I don’t have any good organizational structure around it, it can still be really tricky. Occasionally I see some faculty that will put everything in Canvas… we use Canvas at our university… will put all of the documents that a student needs for a course in the files part of their Canvas course with no organizational structure whatsoever, no modules, no grouping, and that could be really tricky. So it’s going to trip students up when they’re trying to find the things that they’re looking for. It’s also going to be wasting a little bit of their cognitive load or cognitive energy in trying to find those things. So we can organize things like our Canvas courses, our syllabi, etc, thinking about really good structure. When we’re teaching, we can clarify the information hierarchy. And what I mean is, when people learn new information, that information is all at the same importance level, until someone tells you otherwise. And so we can try to be more clear and explicit about that structure. So I might use something like a guided notes document where I have clear headings for kind of the big topics that we’ll be talking about in that day’s lecture, and then that would visually cue students to understand, “Oh, these are the big pieces. These are the most important topics.” And I’ve done that. I’ve kind of elevated that informational hierarchy and made that clear and explicit to the students in the use of that guided notes document.

Rebecca: In addition to using a UDL methodology, what are some other ways to support neurodivergent students in the classroom?

Jennifer: One thing that I think is super important is transparent design. So if you are familiar with the TILT method by Mary-Ann Winklemes and others, that’s a really good way to approach assignments for neurodivergent students, because one of the things that’s really difficult is unclear expectations. So when perhaps an instructor thought they were being clear in their directions, but perhaps could have clarified a little more or maybe made some things kind of broken down a little bit into steps, or checklists, or whatever. When we can do that, that’s going to be really helpful for neurodivergent students. But also, one of the things I really like about that TILT approach to teaching and to instructional design in higher ed is the fact that it elevates the purpose of the assignment. Neurodivergent folks really like to know the why behind things, myself included. I want to understand why we’re doing this. Why are we doing this assignment? Because when I know the why behind the thing, that really helps with my motivation and my engagement. And although I don’t necessarily have to like it or agree with you, I can understand why. That makes a big difference. So, using things like transparent assignment design and transparency in learning and teaching is another great way to do that. It aligns so nicely with universal design for learning, because it’s just asking you to take out all of your assumptions and start thinking proactively about the barriers that your students are going to encounter. UDL is doing that, and transparent assignment design is doing that as well.

John: And we’ll include links to earlier discussions related to this, including the earlier podcast you were on discussing the new UDL guidelines, a podcast with Mary-Ann Winklemes, where she discusses the TILT approach, and a podcast with Viji Sathy and Kelly Hogan, where they talk about the evidence on structure and the importance of structure, because these things are coming from a lot of different areas, and they benefit a lot of students, and specifically, I think Mary-Ann Winklemes and Viji Sathy and Kelly Hogan have emphasized research showing the importance that these things have in reducing many of the equity gaps that we observe in our classes. So these approaches are really useful, and it’s really nice to see the UDL approach combined with the other materials in your book, as well as TILT and the importance of structure. So it’s really a nice guide to effective teaching for everybody, as well as a guide to help reduce some of the challenges faced by neurodivergent students in our classes.

Jennifer: And our neurodivergent students are some of the most brilliant students out of the box, creative thinkers that we have, and so if we can support them on some of these other pieces related to executive functioning, I mean, wow, we’re going to be astounded by what we see in our students. So, I encourage folks to really think about that by supporting neurodivergent students with things like executive functioning and such that you are unleashing that student’s potential in a way that perhaps they had not been able to do before.

John: One of the other things you talk about earlier in your book was that challenges with executive function are often misperceived as indicating a lack of intelligence. Could you talk a little bit about why this misperception occurs, and perhaps how we can break people away from that misperception.

Jennifer: One of the things I actually included in the book, sort of for that reason, I included some quotes from interviews I did with neurodivergent higher ed faculty and staff. I wanted to include their voices, because sometimes I think it can be tricky for instructors. Sometimes they can think that students who maybe have these, what some call invisible disabilities, might be trying to just get something over on them or cheat or make it easier. And so I guess I wanted faculty and instructors to hear from their colleagues, “No, actually, these are things that I did and still struggle with my entire life, and here’s how I have looked at that, or here’s how I help my students now, because of the way that I approach these things well.”

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking: “What’s next?”

Jennifer: There are a lot of things I’ve been thinking about recently. One of the things I’m kind of kicking around is we’ve had some really good books that have come out recently that have elevated the stories of neurodivergent faculty and instructors and kind of their experience and what that’s been like for them. I would love to see… and perhaps this will be next on my list of things to do… more support for neurodivergent faculty, because there’s so much executive functioning that goes along with being an instructor in a higher ed situation. I mean, it’s constant. And then thinking about how we’re balancing our teaching with our research and with our service work and all of those things, we could use a little bit of practical support with that, those of us who are neurodivergent instructors in a higher ed setting. So that’s something I’ve been thinking about a little bit lately. I don’t know if that’s a next project or a next book, but I know it’s a thing that we need some support and help with out there in the field.

Rebecca: Definitely, I think that’s something that I hear a lot as we’re talking about digital accessibility efforts and other things in this space, is we spent a lot of time thinking about how to help students, but not always a lot of time thinking about how to help and support colleagues.

Rebecca: Well, thank you so much for joining us. We look forward to sharing your book and getting this episode out into the world.

Jennifer: I appreciate that.

John: And in fact, we liked your book so much that it’s been chosen as one of our fall reading groups here.

Jennifer: Yay!

John: So we’ll have a number of faculty who will be discussing this through the fall semester. So, thank you.

Jennifer: That’s great. Awesome.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing assistance provided by Fred Llerena.

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445. Emotional Prosody and Online Learning

The use of instructor-narrated video slideshows has increased in response to both the growth of online instruction and increased use of flipped classroom teaching approaches. In this episode, Corinne Syrnyk and Alyson Kubat join us to discuss their study examining the impact on student learning of audio vs video narration and of the emotional tone conveyed by the instructor’s voice.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: The use of instructor-narrated video slideshows has increased in response to both the growth of online instruction and increased use of flipped classroom teaching approaches. In this episode, we explore the impact on student learning of audio vs video narration and of the emotional tone conveyed by the instructor’s voice.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guests today are Corinne Syrnyk and Alyson Kubat. Corinne is the chair of the psychology department and director of research at St. Mary’s University in Calgary, Alberta. She is a developmental psychologist whose research focuses on social, emotional and mental health issues in children, language development, and human-animal activities. Corinne recently established the wellness opportunities and outcomes for pets and humans lab at St. Mary’s. Alyson graduated from St Mary’s last year with a BA honors degree in psychology. Kristin Croyle, the Dean of the College of Liberal Arts, Sciences, and Engineering here at SUNY Oswego, and a frequent guest on the podcast, will be filling in for Rebecca today, who has been called away for some other tasks by other administrators. Welcome Corinne and Alyson.

Alyson: Thank you.

Corinne: Hi. Thank you. Nice to be here. Thank you so much for having us. It’s very exciting.

John: Thank you for joining us.

Kristin: Welcome and today’s teas are… We always start by asking what our guests are drinking today. So are you drinking any tea today?

Corinne: I am not, but I think I will give you the stereotypical Canadian response and say that I started off with the Tim’s, which maybe is too idiosyncratic for your audience, but I went to Tim Horton’s and I got a coffee. But in terms of my preferred tea, that would be fennel.

Kristin: Ooh, nice. And Alyson?

Alyson: I have an Earl Grey.

Kristin: Ah, lovely. And today I’m doing iced tea straight up Lipton with raspberry, since we’re filming after lunch.

John: And I have an Irish Breakfast tea today. We’ve invited you here today to discuss an article that you had published in the November-December issue of Applied Cognitive Psychology entitled “The impact of emotional prosody on online learning in undergraduates.” To help frame this discussion, could you first explain what is meant by emotional prosody?

Corinne: So I think to kind of give you some context for emotional prosody, I’ll start by telling you a story about what we call prosodic speech, otherwise known as “Motherese.” That is essentially the way that we speak to infants. So, when you have a newborn baby, what you’ll tend to find is that the vast majority of parents, new parents, will speak to their kid in a very kind of exaggerated way. So, you have this newborn baby, and you don’t speak to them in a flat affect. You speak to them in an enthusiastic, lilted kind of affect where there’s lots of very clear starts and stops. So you might speak to a baby like, “You are so cute!” You’re relaying a lot of not just words they don’t understand, but the important thing that you’re relating there is potentially emotion and connection, because you’re having that kind of very positive emotional communication with the lilt of your speech, with the tone and the expression. So you fast forward away from prosodic speech to emotional prosody, essentially, that’s kind of the way that we speak, like I’m speaking right now. It has a cadence to it. There is a change in pitch and tone. Hopefully, you can kind of discern my motivation or enthusiasm for the topic by the emotion that I’m conveying through my speech. That is what we would call emotional prosody, and certainly a positive emotional prosody, as opposed to more neutral emotional prosody, which would be a lot more kind of like a flat affect. So if I was talking to you in a monotone way like this, which is a way that you would hopefully not speak to a person all the time, it’s that difference in communication that you’re receiving in terms of the emotional context that’s being communicated. Alyson, maybe you want to build on that?

Alyson: Yeah, I think it’s mainly just focusing on those acoustic cues that accompany speech. So a lot of tone, pitch, loudness of the voice, so all that kind of variance that accompanies speech and can draw interest in people who are listening to the person speak, and just kind of how that engages with the person that you’re speaking to.

Kristin: And what prompted your interest in applying emotional prosody to the online learning environment?

Corinne: Well, I think I’ll just clarify that Alyson was my honors student last year, and she did a really wonderful project. She got into her Honors Program, a competitive program, and I’m very picky [LAUGHTER] with my honors students, and I was very happy to work with her and right off the bat, Alyson communicated to me her interest in this topic, and she’ll tell you more about her own kind of personal ambitions and how this has informed her desire to work with me as a developmental psychologist. So Alyson, tell them your little story.

Alyson: Yeah, of course. I have a very personal interest in speech. I think it’s so interesting. I love learning about language development. I took a class during the… I believe it was the third year of my undergrad… focusing on language development, and the instructor was a speech pathologist. And I absolutely loved that class. It was so interesting to me. And when I went into honors, I just really wanted to focus on that interest in speech and language development. And I also am wanting to be a speech pathologist, hopefully. So I felt that that would be a good topic to focus on. I also, just through my learning, I found that most of my education was done through online environments, I suppose. I graduated high school in 2021, so it was during the height of COVID. So I found it really interesting just how quickly everything just turned into online learning just within the span of about a couple of weeks, maybe two weeks. And so I just found that so interesting, just based on the fact that there was quite a lack of understanding just about the foundations of online learning, about how it will impact learning in students, regardless of age. And I just wanted to kind of expand on that, just to be able to study speech in terms of online learning as well.

Kristin: Thank you.

John: And you began the discussion with the summary of some of the earlier research to set the stage for what the gaps are that your research fills in. Could you give us a bit of an overview of what studies have found before about emotional context and prosody in learning?

Alyson: So I think mainly previous research has focused on, as Dr. Syrnyk mentioned before, infant- directed speech, and just how crucial it is to the development of language in children, and just using that exaggerated speech, I find that’s where most of the previous research was kind of rooted in, considering prosody. And just prosody really aids cognitive processes such as attention, recall, and also promoting concentration. So most of that previous research just demonstrated that it possibly has implications for learning. So a study that I found really interesting when I was looking at previous research on this topic was a study conducted in 2022 by Dylman and Champoux-Larsson. They specifically focused on the impact of emotional prosody on the listening comprehension in, I believe it was 11- to 13-year old children. They found directly that positive emotional prosody promoted greater listening comprehension than when spoken to through neutral emotional prosody. I found there that there was just a very apparent lack of research on older students considering online communication. Yeah, so just the importance of emotions as well while communicating. Something that I found really interesting was considering academic emotions as well, and just how learners understand emotions in regards to their learning. A lot of the time, students felt that the emotions that they were experiencing while they were learning directly impacted their learning performance, as well as their social presence in online learning environments as well. They found, that in regards to social presence, when students perceived that there was a greater social presence in terms of online learning, that students felt that they would learn better, but they didn’t necessarily learn better. So I found all that to be quite interesting in terms of just building up the research for this study.

Kristin: Can you expand just a little bit? What do you mean by social presence?

Alyson: Oh, yeah. So in online learning environments, there was kind of an understanding that the facial cues and then the visual cues provided in online learning, where students were able to see the instructor, that would promote greater communication, and they would feel more connected with their instructor. But that definitely was not the case a lot of the times. So students felt that they were able to connect better with the content that was being spoken to them when they’re able to see a visual of the person speaking to them, but a lot of the times that actually interfered with their learning just based on the stimuli that was interfering with that.

Kristin: Mmhmm, kind of the number of things that they had to pay attention to.

Alyson: Yeah, it definitely impaired more than helped, even though a lot of students personally felt that that increased social presence would benefit, whereas it actually interfered with their learning quite a bit.

Corinne: Yeah, so like the social presence, this notion that somehow the instructor being visible is helpful is just kind of a wide held assumption. It really hasn’t been tested very much, which is part of the reason why Alyson wants to look into this as part of her research here. But there is a lot of mixed evidence in terms of the limited studies that exist in this field of interests. There is mixed evidence as to the efficacy of social presence. We don’t really have a hard yes or no as to whether it’s more beneficial or not, particularly when it’s combined with emotional prosody. So one of the kind of really neat things about her study is that she of course, got to kind of collapse these variables together by seeing what the impact of emotional prosody, whether positive or neutral, would be in impacting recall in terms of student performance, when you look at whether that social presence is activated or not. I also just want to take the opportunity to expand a little bit more on that Dylman, Champoux-Larsson 2002 study. That was Alyson’s kind of guiding light in terms of setting the foundation for her research. She came to me with that study very early and said, “I want to do something with this,” [LAUGHTER] and we really worked from that study quite a bit. Just to kind of build on that a little bit more. It’s really interesting that there’s a very limited scope of research when it comes to emotional prosody, and Dylman, Champoux-Larsson’s study is the one to go to. And what they found in that study was that they looked at younger kids, a group of 8- to 10-year olds versus slightly older, and the older were 11- to 13-years old, and what they did is they essentially tested them on five open-ended questions that were related to their content learning in their classes, which was grade appropriate. And from that, what they effectively found is that emotional prosody was important for the older kids, the 11-to 13-year olds, but not so important for the younger kids. When you think about the developmental profile of coming from a place of prosodic speech being important to kind of maybe having a little bit of a U-shape across middle childhood into later childhood.

John: I think the study is especially interesting given how much more important online learning has become, as well as even in classroom learning, more and more instructors are using videos and using flipped learning approaches. So this applies to a growing share of the instruction that’s taking place. Could you describe the design of your experiment, the four conditions that you used?

Alyson: Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of the four conditions, we were comparing positive emotional prosody versus neutral emotional prosody, and then we were also comparing the delivery conditions, the delivery lecture conditions, so it was a video condition and a audio condition. So based on that, we looked at the interaction between all of those conditions as well. So all participants were shown a 11-slide PowerPoint, and then within that, they were either presented with a video version or an audio version. So the video version would have a video of the instructor teaching on the upper right-hand corner, whereas the audio condition, they were just presented visually with the lecture slides.

Kristin: Nice and tell us a little bit about your participants.

Alyson: So the participants were 80 undergraduate students at St. Mary’s University, and within that there were 20 students assigned to each condition group. They had a mean age of roughly 20 years old, and they spanned all of the degree programs within the school.

Kristin: And I know somebody is going to want to know what the lecture was about. So tell us what the lecture was about, the 11 slides.

Alyson: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] So the lecture… pretty much when I was looking for a topic for something to teach, I wanted it to be something that could be taught relatively quickly, within the five- minute time period that I was looking for for the lecture. And I also wanted it to be something that was slightly more of a niche topic, which proved to be a bit more difficult, just in terms of finding a topic that I felt would work well under those kind of guidelines that I had set out. So I eventually turned to astronomy, and I looked at astronomical eclipses because I felt that was slightly more niche that the majority of students wouldn’t have been previously taught that topic, whereas, while I could still kind of maintain that five-minute duration while being able to include all the information that I wanted to quiz them on.

John: So what did you find when you compared the outcomes in terms of how much the students remembered from these videos?

Alyson: So we assessed them based on a 10-question multiple choice quiz. So once they watched the lecture video, they would complete that quiz directly after. And we found that in terms of the results of the study, that the participants who had been given the positive emotional prosody condition performed significantly better on the quiz than the students who had the neutral emotional prosody so even just comparing that, the positive emotional prosody condition had a mean score of 72.25% on the quiz, whereas the neutral emotional prosody conditions had a mean score of 56.5%. And we found there was really no significant difference when just considering the delivery of the lectures, comparing audio versus video. But the interaction was quite interesting that we ended up finding. So I had initially assumed that combining positive emotional prosody with the video lecture, just due to that potential increased social presence, would result in a better score on the quiz. It actually turned out that while emotional prosody, when conveyed positively increased the quiz scores, it was actually that audio condition that resulted in increased grade scores compared to all the other conditions, which I thought was quite interesting.

Kristin: So if there was positive emotional prosody, if it was the positive emotional prosody condition, they had significantly higher scores on the quiz, as long as there was no video, yes? Did I get that right?

Alyson: That is right. Yes. [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: It sounds like it was a surprise. I know that you have some explanations about why that might have been the case. What do you consider to be the most promising explanations?

Alyson: I think overall, I found the cognitive load theory to be quite helpful with explaining that interaction, and it was really just focusing on the amount of information that was presented to the students and how that impacted them cognitively, in terms of what they were able to retain. So I think for most of the students, it just kind of helped that the audio condition was in combination with positive emotional porosity was interesting to them, enough to engage them cognitively, but it wasn’t at the point where it was exceeding their cognitive threshold, where it would be negatively impacting their cognitive processes such as attention and recall and comprehension, whereas I think it was the video condition that really was just too much in terms of cognitive threshold, and it just exceeded that threshold and eventually just negatively impacted their grades.

Kristin: So kind of a sweet spot of attention without too much, without going over in terms of what they were being asked to pay attention to, both the facial expressions of the instructor, for example, and the content.

Alyson: Absolutely, yeah.

John: One way of stating this is that the video of the instructor was distracting them from the content on the slides?

Corinne: Yes, exactly. And I think I’ll just give you a bit of a definition for cognitive load theory. It’s essentially where we get a limited amount of information that we can process and that varies from individual to individual, of course. T here’s a normal distribution that most of us can maintain attention, maintain active learning with a certain amount of information, some of us more so or less, but we each have these individual thresholds that are reached, and when that threshold is reached, that’s essentially your working memory bench or table is full, and you can’t really process much more. So your ability to attend and comprehend learning what’s going on, it’s kind of maxed out. So yes, you’re quite right, John, like this notion that there’s this point by having that additional information of the instructor visible on the slides was just too much, and one way to conceptualize that is through this notion of distraction. When you have too much information, it is distracting and you can’t absorb the information that you probably could if there was less information there.

Kristin: I know that your study doesn’t go this far. I expect that people who are teaching online, who are using a lot of video, that they would argue that there are other benefits that they’re getting from that, that they’re, for example, trying to form an individual relationship across space and time, and that they’re using it instead as a motivational tool, or something like that. I know this is beyond what your study looked at, but what are your thoughts on that?

Corinne: I think that’s a great point. This is part of what Alyson and I were interested in. There’s this kind of general… ever since COVID, particularly… this general assumption that being visible is better, like as an instructor, but we have very little evidence that it’s real. In fact, this study kind of shows the opposite pattern of effect. So, in terms of adding the video, the video yourself, as John says, might be a distraction. This study is a small study. Of course, it needs replication. We need larger sample sizes, of course. But what I tend to see in terms of the online learning world, I’d like to see more evidence-based pedagogy, particularly when it comes to things that are related to like attention and memory and recall, because those are things that we naturally depend on, we take for granted in a classroom environment, because you can see your students and you can engage with your students, and you can tell if somebody is on their phone or asleep. But in an online environment, of course, that feedback is often one way, and the assumption is that, well, if they see me while I have these slides on, this is going to be better. But do they really need to see you? Maybe not. Do they really need to hear you speak with some enthusiasm or emotion when you’re speaking? These results seem to support that instead.

Kristin: I’m struck, because right now, in this environment, the listeners for the podcast are going to be listening to people with positive, emotional prosody and no video. But right now, as we’re recording, we’re using a platform in which we can see each other on screen. So we’re doing our best to replicate your conditions [LAUGHTER] right here at this moment. We’re trying to leave out the negative, the lack of emotional prosody though.

Corinne: There’s so much scope for more research here, really, which is really exciting about Alyson’s work here, is that it’s really just scratching the surface of what else we could really be examining within this area.

Kristin: The other thing that it brings to mind for me is research on distracted driving. That conversation in the car is less distracting than a phone conversation, for example, partly because the other passengers recognize the driving conditions, they can see if you’re entering a difficult driving situation. That perhaps it speaks more to the actual reality of being in the same place and time in which that personal connection makes a bigger difference. Perhaps there is something different about the online environment where we’re trying to create an individual connection, but at the same time, there is an artificiality to it, and prioritizing student learning over our assumptions about what might be creating a connection may be a more supported way to go.

John: I was really impressed by the magnitude of the effect, not just that it was statistically significant, but that was a really large difference in the scores. That result is remarkably strong.

Alyson: I was quite surprised by it as well. I think I was expecting there obviously to be some difference, but when I calculated all the quiz scores, I was genuinely surprised by how significant of a difference it was, especially when just considering the fact that it was a five-minute lecture video and immediately followed by a 10-question multiple choice quiz. I really wasn’t expecting the results to be that significant, especially just considering, yeah, like you said, the lack of research, the lack of basis that there was in terms of providing significant support, I suppose. Whereas it was just kind of surprising how significant that difference was.

Kristin: I’m guessing you triple, triple checked it. You’re like, “what?”

Alyson: I did, yes. [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: Two full questions better, yeah.

Alyson: Yeah, exactly. It was just very, very surprising. But it was really interesting to go from watching these people engage with the study and then have actual results to follow that I found that to be quite interesting.

Corinne: Alyson did a really strong study, I’m really proud of her. She had a really strong design, and she was really committed to recruitment and seeing through all the very important aspects that are required when you’re conducting research. And she did such a fine job that we are so happy to be able to go ahead and publish her work, and work with people like you as well, so that we can share these results.

John: And we should thank Michelle Miller, who wrote this up in her substack earlier, which is how we found out about this paper. We’ll include a link to your study and the studies you cited, as well as to Michelle Miller’s substack post on this, for people who may want to follow up a bit more. Going back to Kristin’s comment about how our podcast is audio, I did hear a statistic, actually, from some of our colleagues at Finger Lakes Community College this week, where they noted that 40% of podcasts have moved to a video format. We have chosen not to do that for a number of reasons. The main one is we mess up a lot, [LAUGHTER] and this way we can edit out all the mistakes before we release it, but also, we like to listen to podcasts with just the audio, and both Rebecca and I at least, generally don’t watch videos quite as much because it takes more time to sit there and watch the video, when with a podcast, you could be driving, you could be walking, you could be doing other tasks. For us, we’re probably going to stick with it, even though we do see more and more podcasts moving to a video format. But at least now we have a little bit of empirical evidence to support the continued use of audio only.

Kristin: And we always end by asking: “What’s next?”

Corinne: Well, like I said earlier, I think that Alyson’s study here really just opens up a whole can of worms for all sorts of very exciting new leads into research. One of the things that Alyson and I certainly have been discussing is we’re assessing this in terms of student recall or performance on a task, but it would be really interesting to look at how students perceive themselves, emotional prosody, within online learning mechanisms. Because I think it’s something that I would assume that most students pick up on and have preferences based on the emotional prosody of their instructors, and that would be reflected in terms of whether they think that instructor is a better quality instructor or not. And what does that mean in terms of the content that they actually relay? And this is another thing that we were thinking about, which was really maybe a little bit off the wall, but kind of interesting. You’re familiar with the uncanny valley phenomenon, right? And we’re thinking, what if there’s like, an uncanny valley for emotional prosody? What if trained people who are more neutral on their emotional prosody. How would that be perceived by learners or by people listening? Would they be convinced necessarily, or would they be like, “Oh no, there’s something going on here?”

Kristin: For listeners who may not be familiar with the uncanny valley. Can you quickly describe it?

Corinne: Yeah. So the uncanny valley phenomena is this notion that humans are essentially kind of very suspect [LAUGHTER] to robots. We have a high sensitivity to the artificial. We’re very kind of good at sussing out what’s artificial versus what is not. And that is found across a range of kind of things in the world. So whether it’s robots or different kinds of aspects of learning modalities, we’re good at picking up on artificial versus real. And this is an effect that’s evident in infancy, like it’s evident from very early on. Very young children will be able to discern inanimate versus animate objects, inanimate versus animate movement, etc, physical properties. And this extends into, of course, you know, as you get older, but in terms of an uncanny value, and when it comes to emotional prosody, and not all instructors are built the same. You know, I think about all your university profs. I’m sure we all had University profs, I’m one of them, that had a more kind of flat effect when they talked, they spoke more monotone and they kind of talked like this. They probably had a reputation for speaking a little bit more monotone, but in today’s world in higher education, there’s certainly a lot more emphasis on pedagogy, on teaching and improving skills and attributes of our instructors, which is great. But can you teach emotional prosody? Can you teach someone to speak with more emphasis and cadence and expression? And if you could, what impact would that have on people?

Kristin: Or could you essentially auto tune them into it in an online environment? Would that be perceptible? How would it be perceived by students if they knew or didn’t know? I mean, we see what auto tune does to music, it’s used sometimes in the background and is an embarrassment, if people find out, other times in the foreground, as a musical technique. With all the tools we’ve got, certainly there would be a way to manipulate it.

Corinne: Absolutely. Fascinating, you can do all sorts of things, and with AI now too, I mean, right? Like we are in this weird world of we’re not quite sure what’s real anymore or what is and I don’t know exactly what that would do to things. You could probably try to set up different aspects of non- real people doing this kind of thing now, and test that in terms of perception and learners or people in general.

John: And ElevenLabs and some of the other AI tools have developed some very realistic, emotional prosody in terms of their speech. And it would be interesting to do an experiment when people are faced with AI avatars delivering that versus perhaps actual instructors. [LAUGHTER] Because we do see AI avatars being used increasingly in a lot of social media, a lot of ads and so forth, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they started showing up in some online instruction.

Corinne:Yeah, kind of terrifying, [LAUGHTER] for a number of reasons. But yeah, there’s a lot of questions there. And I mean another thing, I love research, so when I started thinking about all the other things, you know, it gets really exciting. But like, at what point does emotional prosody compete with content? Like, there has to be some type of like, I would assume there has to be some type of U-shape there in terms of that effect. I kinda think about, like, people who are very convincing speakers in terms of the way that they speak with that emotional prosody, but the content is incongruent with the actual delivery. How is that interpreted? What impact does that have on recall of the message that they’re giving? So yeah, lots of really cool things to explore.

John: And I do have to say, when I was reading this, one of the things I was thinking about was the movie Ferris Bueller’s Day Off, and that little video clip, that little segment in the middle where Ben Stein was talking about tariffs and how harmful tariffs could be in the economy. And apparently that message never got through to students, or we wouldn’t be in the current situation we are in the U.S. Maybe it’s because we tend not to have enough emotional prosody in our economics classes.

Corinne: Well, I want to say anything, but, [LAUGHTER] yeah, there’s some weird stuff going on there. [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: That is really funny. [LAUGHTER]

John: And so Alyson, what are you doing now?

Alyson: I am currently working as a 911 dispatcher with EMS. I am hoping to apply to graduate school in the next year or two to kind of pursue that. I am hoping to volunteer as well within the next bit, and also just hopefully to engage in some future research opportunities. I think just working with Dr Syrnyk through this whole experience has been very helpful in terms of mushing together my education, I suppose, in terms of all the courses I’ve taken in the past about research. It’s really shown me how important research is, and especially the discussions that can result from research that occurs. So I think that it’s just really made me quite passionate for future research opportunities that I could possibly have, where the research that we’ve done here could possibly lead. I think that would be really interesting to see.

John: And you’re off to a great start already doing some research that can have a significant impact potentially on how people teach online classes and how students learn. Anything that we can do to help improve that would be really useful.

Alyson: Yeah, absolutely. Especially just as online learning becomes increasingly prevalent in university classrooms. It’ll especially be interesting to see how different forms of lectures are incorporated into online platforms. There are some classes that I’ve taken, like a statistics course, where it’s very much more involved. It’ll be interesting to see how that kind of forms from where it is now into just based on research, distant into the future.

John: Well, thank you. We really enjoyed talking to you, and thank you for sharing your research and this discussion of your work with us.

Kristin: Yes. Thank you both.

Corinne: Yes. Thank you for having us. It’s been wonderful and nice to get to know you a bit and see you. It’s just been a great opportunity.

Alyson: Yeah, thank you so much.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing Assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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444. Random Audits to Deter Cheating

The growing capabilities of generative AI platforms have made it increasingly difficult for faculty to reliably distinguish between student work and AI-generated output. In this episode, David Wiley joins us to discuss the possibility of using random audits to promote academic integrity in a scalable manner.

David has an extensive record as an innovator, entrepreneur, and leader in open educational materials beginning with the Open Content Project in 1998, continuing with his work as Director of Educational Licenses for Creative Commons, a co-founder of several education-related organizations, including Lumen Learning, where he also served as the Chief Academic Officer from 2012 to 2025. He is the recipient of numerous awards, including an NSF Career grant. David is currently an Associate Professor at Marshall University where he teaches courses in Entrepreneurship and Management Information Systems. Much of his recent work has been on the intersection of generative AI, open education, entrepreneurship, instructional design, and student success.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: The growing capabilities of generative AI platforms have made it increasingly difficult for faculty to reliably distinguish between student work and AI-generated output. In this episode, we discuss the possibility of using random audits to promote academic integrity in a scalable manner.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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Rebecca: Our guest today is David Wiley. David has an extensive record as an innovator, entrepreneur, and leader in open educational materials beginning with the Open Content Project in 1998, continuing with his work as Director of Educational Licenses for Creative Commons, a co-founder of several education-related organizations, including Lumen Learning, where he also served as the Chief Academic Officer from 2012 to 2025. He is the recipient of numerous awards, including an NSF Career grant. David is currently an Associate Professor at Marshall University where he teaches courses in Entrepreneurship and Management Information Systems. Much of his recent work has been on the intersection of generative AI, open education, entrepreneurship, instructional design, and student success. Welcome David.

David: Thank you. [LAUGHTER] I appreciate the invitation to be here.

John: Well, we’re very glad you accepted. Today’s teas are:.. David, are you drinking any tea with us today?

David: I’m a water guy. I’ve got a giant glass of water here. I will be drinking throughout. [LAUGHTER]

John: Hydration is healthy. And Rebecca?

Rebecca: I’ve got English Tea Time today, John.

John: And I have a black raspberry green tea today.

Rebecca: Oh, that sounds nice. I’m sure it smells nice, and I probably wouldn’t like the taste of it. [LAUGHTER]

John: It’s delicious, and it smells nice too.

Rebecca: We have an ongoing discussion of that. [LAUGHTER] David, we invited you here today to discuss your March 9, 2026, working paper entitled “Random Audits as a Scalable Deterrent to Cheating, Using Game Theory to Design Fair and Effective Academic Integrity Systems for the AI Era.” You begin this paper by noting that there has been a long standing arms race between students engaged in cheating and faculty attempting to detect and deter cheating through the use of surveillance technology such as remote proctoring AI detection software and lockdown browsers. Is this an arms race that faculty can win given [LAUGHTER] the vast amounts of funding going into the development of generative AI platforms?

David: I don’t know that it was an arms race they could win before generative AI became a thing. It seems like there’s boundless, infinite creativity and energy on the part of students in this regard, in particular. We tend to be little older, a little less connected to everything that’s going on currently, and the availability of new techniques and new tools, I don’t see any end to this arms race. If we’re trying to fight it, technology versus technology specifically, there’s nothing we’re ever going to create as instructors that’s going to compete, as you say, with these multi-billion dollar generative AI tools that are being created.

John: What you suggest is that we skip the arms race entirely by perhaps using an audit system that may alter students’ incentives. Could you give our listeners an overview of how an audit system might work?

David: Yeah, it might be easiest to begin explaining by reference to some examples that people already know. We often make progress on hard problems by realizing that a different framing of the problem can help us see it from another perspective. This is a problem that I’ve been interested in for a while. Other people have been more interested in it than me, I acknowledge that. This isn’t my area of expertise by any stretch. I was just trying to abstract this problem up to the highest level I possibly could, and think about it from that perspective, and I would say that from that very high level, there’s some largish number of people that we need to be honest, but the number of them is so large and the circumstances are such that we can’t directly observe all of them. If you frame it that way, and then start to think about, what are other domains where that same problem exists, and how do they approach it, then some other examples start to present themselves. Doing taxes is the first one that came to mind. The IRS has an interest in all of us being honest, but obviously can’t observe all of our documentation and all of the work we do as we prepare our taxes and submit. Once you get to that first example, then others kind of start busting through. You think about anti-doping in sports. We can’t watch everything that every athlete does all the time, but we need them to be honest about the fact that they’re not using substances that we don’t want them to use. Nuclear proliferation [LAUGHTER] would be another… food safety, we can’t be in every warehouse producing every kind of food, the FDA can’t all the time. We need them to be honest that they’re following safety guidelines and meeting standards. Once you abstract the problem up one level, you’re able to see that same problem manifest in other domains. And of course, the way that the problem is addressed in all those other domains is through some kind of audit procedure, ostensibly random audits that have pretty significant penalties associated with them. And the idea is that the penalty is so dramatic that it removes the incentive to be dishonest in the first place. As you said, rather than trying to continue to compete in the arms race with “you develop this technique for cheating, and I’ll develop this one for countering it, and we’ll just keep doing that over and over again,” what if we just step to the side and said, “Let’s just try to remove the incentives for cheating altogether and kind of come at this a different way.” That was the originating thought behind the paper.

Rebecca: So that’s like the abstract, the big problem. And I think when you start thinking about it with these other examples, it seems like it’s not such a big deal, not such a big problem. It’s solvable. Can you talk a little bit about what that might actually look like in a classroom setting? What would an audit system look like in terms of assessments in a class?

David: I didn’t go into this very much in the paper and said explicitly in the paper that I think that there’s a second set of work that needs to be done. If people believe that this higher level framework is interesting and appealing, there’s a lot of detailed work to be done then in describing exactly what the audit would look like. And you can imagine it looking very different from one discipline to another, and looking very different from one kind of work that was done to another kind of work. So if I’ve given an exam, and this was a multiple-choice exam, say, with 40 or 50 questions, you’re selected for an audit, then what that might look like is I might take some subset of the questions that you got right on the exam, and I might watch you retake some subset of the exam over again, because I don’t want to spend another hour or hour and a half with you doing this. I want to spend 15 or 20 minutes doing it, and rather than randomly selecting questions from the exam, because maybe you missed some of them on the exam, it would behoove me to choose the ones that you’d gotten right on the exam, and we could look and see if you’re able to get the correct answers again. Or if I’ve had you write an essay, I might pull out five to 10 vocabulary words from that essay that seem kind of interesting. I might ask you just to describe to me what those vocabulary words mean to you. Give me an overview of the argument that you created in the paper. It would take a different format depending on what kind of work the student had done, which of course is related to the discipline of the course. But the idea is that you’d want these to be doable in a pretty brief period of time, 15 or 20 minutes, because you’re going to need to do a number of them, and you would only do them for major assignments. I wouldn’t do this for every 10 or 15 point homework assignment in a course. I would do it for a 100-point midterm, 100-point final, or 100-point project. I think it would need to be used pretty judiciously, because it is going to take a fair amount of time.

John: A lot of people recently have been suggesting a movement towards oral exams, and that’s a much more extreme form of this. And what I really liked about your approach is that it is an oral exam, but it’s one given only to a small subset of the students, and it’s a shorter exam designed to deter cheating, rather than to completely eliminate any possibility for cheating. And it seems like this is much more scalable than many other approaches that people have suggested. One of the things you mentioned is the Ellsberg paradox, which suggests that people are more cautious when they’re facing uncertainty, when they don’t know the probabilities, for example, of being audited, then when they know the risk, when they know what the probabilities are. How can instructors use this paradox to also deter cheating, or to help deter cheating?

David: Yeah, I think there are a couple of examples from behavioral economics that we could leverage to our benefit here as the instructors, but I think this is one. There is a interactive simulator that you can play with that accompanies the paper, where you can turn the knobs up and down on how many students there are and how many points there are in the course, tell you things like what percentage of people you need to audit and how big the penalty needs to be in order for the game theory to all work out, for the incentive to kind of evaporate, to cheat. You need to know all those things as an instructor, [LAUGHTER] but what you need to say to the class is, some of you are going to get tapped on the shoulder after the midterm, and we’re going to do this kind of supplementary learning review together. But I think it’s just as easy as avoiding saying “it’s going to be exactly 15% of you,” and then I think it’s important to come back afterwards and say I enjoyed the conversations that I had with many of you in our supplemental learning review. Make sure that people know that it’s happening, that it’s occurring. Hopefully, some of the people who are selected and who do well will come out the other side and tell their friends, “hey, you know, I got chosen for one of these.” It’s important that the word gets around and that people believe that they really are happening. If the idea of the audit as something that’s really going to occur loses its credibility, then of course, it loses all of its value as a deterrent.

Rebecca: So speaking of the idea of credibility, how do we really make sure that a system like this maintains its credibility, other than being careful about how we present it to the class.

David: Say a little more about that.

Rebecca: If students say, “Oh, I was tapped on the shoulder,” then it seems like whatever [LAUGHTER] you were tapped on the shoulder to discuss, or whatever that supplemental learning instruction was would need to seem to be like a good follow up. And that people didn’t feel like it was threatening in some way. If someone has test anxiety or something like that, it’s set up in a way that feels trustworthy and safe and that it’s fair.

David: Being fair is extremely important. Let me come back to that in a second. First, I would say, I’m not a person who gets upset easily. Let’s just say, a time that I was very upset, that I recall very clearly, was as a graduate student about halfway through my first course on assessment design and learning how to create a measurement of learning that is going to have the psychometric properties that you want it to have. It’s going to be valid, it’s going to be reliable. And realizing that my entire life had turned on decisions that had been made about what I had and hadn’t learned by teachers in high school and instructors in my undergraduate career that had no idea what they were doing as they designed these assessments [LAUGHTER] , they had taken multiple choice exams when they were a student, so they created them when they became a professor, and, oh my gosh, I got so lit up about that. I promise we’re coming back around to your question. But one of the interesting phenomena that happened with the move to online learning in the 2000s as that really started to take off, was people started making claims about the degree of quality and rigor and the standards that a course would have to meet in order to be offered online. And it was always hysterical to me that if you had turned around and tried to apply any of those criteria to the face-to-face instruction that was happening, very little of the face-to-face instruction would have passed muster. So there’s this weird kind of double standard that we’re accepting of things being, I’m going to say poorly done, that’s stronger than I mean, but we’re accepting of things being poorly done as long as they’re poorly done the way they’ve always been poorly done. But if we’re going to do anything different, it has to meet this 18 times higher bar. The reason I bring that up is that I think it’s the same person who’s going to design the assessment for the supplemental learning measurement as designed the original assessment. And so the idea that it would be somehow unfair or tricky or difficult or something like that, it will probably still be kind of poorly designed, just like the original assessment that was taken maybe was because maybe that person did their PhD in something other than education and has never had a class on what valid, reliable assessment design looks like. I don’t want to get in a place where we try to hold this secondary assessment to a 10x higher bar than we hold the primary assessment. I think as long as the secondary assessment looks very much like the primary assessment. That’s really what we want. And I mentioned in the paper that you wouldn’t want to put yourself in a situation where maybe your primary assessment, the exam that everyone does, is measuring learning outcomes at very low Bloom levels, like remember and understand. And then you would turn around on the secondary assessment, and all the questions would be apply and synthesize, and then you say, “Oh my gosh, you failed the supplemental exam.” Well, it’s broadly on the same topic, but it’s not measuring the same learning outcomes that the original assignment did. That’s why I think it’s nice in cases where you have some kind of exam with multiple questions, whether they’re short answer or multiple choice or whatever, to take a subset of those questions that the student did well on, that’s ideal. If you can’t do that, then you can take parallel forms of them, where, if it’s a word problem, you change the names of the people and the number of apples, the same question, just changing some of the details about it. But it’s very important that that supplemental assessment be on the same topic, at the same level of difficulty, similar in every way that it can be to the primary one. There’s no assessment strategy you could take to scale across higher ed if it really depended on all those assessments being valid.

John: To reiterate your point, it’s not just a few people who haven’t had much training in assessment and reliability and validity. It’s probably 95% or more of those teaching in college, I would suspect. It is a major issue, but that’s not something we can all deal with here, other than doing our best to help everyone become better at these things. [LAUGHTER] Well, going back to that point, about not sharing, necessarily, the proportion of students who are going to go through the second stage, because when students don’t know the probabilities, they’re more likely to worry about the downside of that, about the possibility that they may be caught. There’s another behavioral economic principle known as loss aversion, which is when people are faced with a choice between a gain and a loss, a loss of equal value to a gain is weighted much more heavily. There’s a lot of research suggesting that people do pay much more attention to potential losses than they do to potential gains. And I think this sort of approach is one where that loss is the main cost that students potentially face, and that may also amplify the effect.

David: I agree completely. As I worked on this idea, the loss aversion piece of it didn’t occur to me initially. Once I started doing some of the math and realizing the penalty was going to have to be bigger than 100 points to make the math math, as people say these days, that it was going to need to be 50 points more, or 100 points more. You were going to need a zero on this assessment, plus another 50 point penalty against what? …just against your overall grade. At some point, looking at that, I realized, “Oh my gosh, and people feel losses about twice as strongly as they feel gains of the same size.” That’s another bit of BE working in our favor there, in terms of, again, just trying to not fight the battle of, you’re going to cheat and I’m going to catch you. I’m just going to take away the incentive for you to cheat in the first place, so that we don’t have to fight that fight later.

Rebecca: I can imagine that introducing a system like this into a class would be challenging, like any type of different grading mechanism [LAUGHTER] where students are used to a particular kind of assessment or particular way of teaching and learning that may be counter to [LAUGHTER] good practices, but we want to introduce something new to them, we have to be really careful and take the time to explain the why. I imagine that would be the case here too, is really taking the time to explain why there’s an audit system and what the purpose of that is, would be important to getting the students to buy in.

David: Absolutely, I think so. I’ve had some preliminary conversations with folks in the Office of Academic Integrity at my institution to talk about, “Does this seem like it’s compatible with the way things work, and at what point do I refer someone to your office as having violated their academic integrity,” as opposed to “I’m just dealing with it internally, with penalties that are clearly outlined in the syllabus.” And it’s not me saying, “Ooh, I have vibes that you’re cheating,” or “I read this paper and it didn’t sound like you,” so I’m going to accuse you of something, but it’s just a repeated measures. You took one test, you did very, very well. We turned around and did a second measure of the same thing, and it was really different, and that’s a problem. So I think laying all that out and being very honest about the fact that I don’t want to do all the work it’s going to take me to do to try to catch you when you cheat, it’s just too much time. It’s too much effort. If I’ve got a class of 50 students, some percentage of them score a C or better, which creates the pool of people that I’m going to draw from to do these follow up learning measures, if I have to do five of them on every major assessment, but it actually eliminates the problem, that’s much less time spent than I would have spent on all the other things that you do. It definitely will take some time. And now, as I’m answering that question, I realized I’ve lost the thread of what the question was. I’ve meandered a bit from what you asked me there. I apologize.

Rebecca: I mean, I was just really thinking about faculty who introduce concepts like ungrading that are just really unfamiliar, because it’s very different from the ways that they’re expecting the assessment or getting caught cheating… like what any of that looks like. So for making it look different, then it really requires some explanation up front.

David: This is something that, if you don’t use a syllabus quiz, you would want a syllabus quiz where people have to go through and answer four or five questions about “Yes, I looked at it, yes, I understand I’ll lose all the points on that assignment.”” Well, and how many additional points will you lose off of your overall grade? Will it be 25, 50. 75, 100? It’ll be 100 points more. You’d really want to require them to go through some exercise where they have to read the syllabus, they have to understand, they have to demonstrate that they understand. You’d want to go over it verbally, either in front of the classroom or on a video if you’re teaching online. It’s going to take several explanations. And then I would raise the issue again just before any assessment where it applied. So everybody remembers, back in September, we talked about this, and now here we are at the big midterm, and this applies. So let me explain again what that means. Some number of you are going to take a secondary assessment after we take this primary one, and if there’s a big difference between how you do on the secondary one and the first one, there’s a penalty, and this is what the penalty is like. And the reason I’m doing this is to remove all incentive for you to cheat at all, because the odds of you passing the class if you cheat and are caught here, are basically zero. Maybe if you got 100% on every other assignment, you could squeak out a C- that’ll let you count this course toward your graduation. It’s just too dangerous, so don’t do it. You’re going to get caught.

John: And maybe even a reminder of that at the top of the assessment might not be a bad strategy, too.[LAUGHTER] So it’s there explicitly in case students ignored all the information up to that point, which has been known to happen once or twice.

David: Actually, that’s a really interesting point. Maybe the first two questions on the assessment should be, is there some chance that I’ll be selected for a secondary experience, and if there’s a radical difference between my score here and there, in addition to getting a zero on this, how many other points will I lose? Now, I wouldn’t want to put them in a state of panic that’s going to prevent them from performing well on the assessment, but you’re right, the proximity of the reminder to the task really ends up being important, doesn’t it?

Rebecca: If you really don’t know this, you should just let me know now. [LAUGHTER]

John: One of the other things you talk about, though, is a concern for false positives on this second-stage assessment, because students may be nervous, they may be having a bad day, there may be some anxiety or language issues or some other issue that interferes with their performance. So you suggest a few ways of perhaps addressing the risk of false positives. Can you talk a little bit about those?

David: Yeah, well, we’ve talked a little bit about one of them, which actually may not be in the paper, that is just been part of my thinking is that’s evolving, and that is using subsets of the same work that you had students do on the primary measure on the secondary measure, so that you remove any, what we might call construct irrelevant noise from that second measure. We want them to be the same across there. But if a student performed really poorly on the supplemental measure, they might come back and say a couple of things: “I was having a really bad day.” “My grandmother died.” “My cat died.” “This happened, this other thing happened, and I was just out of it.” Then I’d be inclined to say, “go home, sleep it off, eat a decent breakfast, and let’s try again tomorrow.” Now, if there’s something structural about the assessment that makes it difficult for them to engage with it, a) I would have expected that to show up the first time they took the assessment, b) any kind of accommodation that they require for anything that’s going on with them and their learning, we should have provided the first time around, and we should definitely provide the second time around. I think it’s important that there’s some kind of release valve for somebody who just wants to bang the pulpit and insist, “no, I do actually know this. There’s something wrong with the supplemental measure that you did” to say, “heck, let’s do it a third time. But this is the last one. With repeated measures. If I get two of one outcome and one out of the other, I know which one I’m inclined to believe now,” and when they’re quite different than that’s kind of concerning. I think the primary method is having there be some appeal process where they can take a second supplementary learning evaluation and maybe modifying the mode or the method of that. If there is something about the first one that if they’re English as a second language learner, and there’s a lot of writing on this version of it, then maybe there’s some alternate form that I can provide them that’s going to make it easier for them to show me what they really know, because the point here isn’t to catch anyone. The point is to get them to demonstrate what they actually know. So it’s not about gotchas. It’s about accurately measuring what students know and are able to do. So if there’s something about that secondary assessment that made it so that that measure was inaccurate, then we should take another swing at, but it’s not turtles all the way down, right? It’s not the 15th time that we’re coming around and trying this thing again. There has to be a stopping point.

Rebecca: Some students might not be concerned with maximizing [LAUGHTER] their grades. They might not be aiming for an A, perhaps they’re using AI to meet those minimum passing standards. Students say things like, “Cs, get you degrees.” If this is a common phenomenon, which I’m pretty sure it is, how could the audit process be modified to deter kind of that C level cheating?

David: One of the differences between the first draft of the paper and the draft that was posted has to do with this issue, and that is that I was trying to think about how to make the potential pool of people that might be drawn, that might be audited, smaller. And it occurred to me that if you failed the exam, there’s no need for me to audit you, because you failed the exam. Depending on the institution that you’re at and the discipline and the major, sometimes you need a C or better to count that course toward graduation requirements, sometimes just anything that passes is okay, but I think that as an instructor, you’d need to be kind of attuned to that, and that the floor, in other words, the lowest score with which someone would be eligible for the audit, needs to be far enough down that it picks up all the people in that category. So if it’s A, B, or C counts as satisfactory academic progress, then everybody who gets a C needs to be in the audit pool too, and they need to be drawn out, and they need to have the supplementary experience. If they knew it so poorly that even using AI, they could only pull out a C, then I think that’s going to show up, now if they’re being super clever and smart and trying to calibrate exactly their AI use so that they only get a C. Actually, in that case, they’re only cheating themselves. I mean, if they’re going to use AI, they should have just gone ahead and got an A, using it in a clever way to get a C doesn’t help you, because if you get pulled into the audit and it turns out you don’t know the material, you may as well have rolled the dice on getting an A than getting a C.

Rebecca: How to play the game well.

David: Well, this is part of why you don’t make all the rules explicit, right? It’s 12 and a half percent of you that are going to be audited every time, or something like that. I think to the extent that the rules are unclear, it’s harder to play the game.

John: Going back a little bit to addressing those false positives, you also mentioned perhaps having some type of an audit bonus or a bonus for those who are audited and passed successfully. Can you talk a little bit about why you might use that approach?

David: Rereading the paper before we got together today, I can see me disagreeing with myself a little bit in the paper [LAUGHTER] on this topic, which is why it’s just a working paper still. My initial inclination there was that if you’re going to get pulled out and have to schedule time and be at a place at a time to meet with me for 15 or 20 minutes to do something, you probably deserve something for doing that, something other than “attaboy” or “attagirl.” So introducing a couple of points that you could think of as extra credit or as bonus points, or as thanks for being part of this process, was the way I originally thought about that. It turns out that that bonus also helps the math work out in terms of the expected amount of points somebody could earn if there’s a chance of a false positive. But then if you don’t get a false positive, and you are able to show what you really knew, then you do get a couple of extra bonus points, like making that all balanced out, that it turns out to work out nicely from that perspective as well. Later in the paper, you can see me kind of arguing with myself about whether I want to call this extra credit or bonus points or, like, “I put you through this whole thing, guys, I’m going to throw you a bone. Here’s a couple of points for participating in this process,” versus saying “you took this much smaller second assessment, and since it was smaller, I’m going to give you a smaller amount of extra points for passing it, because you get points for passing the first one, get more points for passing the second one.” I’m still not exactly sure how to frame the language around it, whether to think about it as extra credit, or look, you have a chance to do a second assessment, and you’re going to earn more points on that, and those points are also going to count toward your grade, and other people aren’t going to get the opportunity to take that second one and not have the opportunity to earn those extra points. So you can think about it as being earned or being extra, or however you want to think about it, you can really only understand by putting this in front of students and working through it a time or three. There’s got to be some way to talk about it, though.

Rebecca: Like thinking through a student lens. “Ooh, I want to get audited so I can get some extra points.” [LAUGHTER]

John: If only the IRS worked that way.

Rebecca: I was just thinking. But I’m like in all these other contexts that doesn’t play out.

David: That does not work that way in any of the other contexts. And maybe this is just me being a softie, especially in an asynchronous, online course, if I’m going to require you to make an appointment and show up someplace at a certain time, I think you deserve something.

Rebecca: I think that feeds into the question of just in what ways is the system equitable, if we think about the student populations and thinking about your sampling and different strategies that might be employed. How do we make sure that a process like this remains equitable?

David: I think it being truly random is important to being equitable. And there’s a paragraph or two in the paper, some people who did poorly on the first two or three assessments, and now they suddenly do really well on this one, maybe we might weight their potential to be drawn out of the pool a little more heavily. You could certainly do something like that, but it seems like the most fair way to do it is just to do it completely randomly. And I think part of the equity argument here is that it’s really only fair if the grade that you earn is an accurate reflection of your learning. And if you work and study and push and strive and you end up with an 89 and then somebody else who does none of that and cheats their way through ends up with a 93, that, to me, is like the definition of being inequitable. Part of the equity of this is who is selected to participate, but there’s also an equitable outcome of does the signal of the grade truly reflect your learning in a way that is fair? Everybody’s grade really is an accurate reflection of their learning, not some people’s grades are accurate reflections, and other people’s grades are super over inflated because they were cheating and we weren’t able to catch them. I think about the equity on those two levels.

Rebecca: I think the transparency that we talked about earlier too, about explaining the process and making sure students understand the process, that plays into equity as well. It’s really important for everybody to understand a system that might be really unfamiliar to them.

David: Not that I’m trying to convince you. I really would want to try to try to convince them that this is not about trying to catch you doing something. It’s a second measure, and if you did well on the first one, you’ll do well on the second one, and you’ll get some additional points for doing well on the second one. I think there’s a way that that can be explained and communicated and practiced that is fair for everybody. If it doesn’t eliminate the incentives to cheat, it can really dramatically reduce it.

John: And one of the things I was just thinking about, as we’ve been having this discussion, is a classic economics paper by George Akerlof called “The Market for Lemons,” which explains why, when you drive a car off a lot, its value drops dramatically. And the reason is, when you buy a new car, you can expect that most new cars are very high quality, but if you look at the market for cars that are a year old, what happens is, we get a very different mix. The high quality used cars are ones people are likely to keep, the lemons that they are having a lot of problems with are the ones that tend to be offered for sale. In the market for used cars, you don’t necessarily know whether this used car would be a lemon or not, and that’s essentially the sort of system we have with grades in the presence of AI. The whole value of a degree and of the grades in classes can very well be lowered if employers and future instructors at other institutions observe that students have not mastered the skills that their grades suggest that they have, and that can devalue education for all the students, including the ones who actually did master the skills we hope that they have. Having more accurate signals is a really useful way of addressing this, and that’s one of the things I really like about this approach.

David: It seems like now, more than any time that I’ve been alive, for sure, that the number of questions about the value of education are already at an all-time high, confidence is at an all-time low, perceived usefulness is at an all-time low. AI just has the potential to make that situation even worse if we don’t figure out some way to really improve the consistency of if you came out of that program with a B average, I know what that means in terms of skills and knowledge and attitudes and things that you’re going to have, but when those signals don’t mean anything, then people stop relying on them. And, I tell you what, you want to see, the bottom really fall out of higher education, we just need employers to stop requiring degrees as a condition of employment. If a degree isn’t the gateway to good employment, who’s going to keep showing up paying what they pay now to participate in this process. We’ve got to do better.

Rebecca: I think the more we share with students the concern that we have about their learning and why we might put measures in place to make sure that their degree does mean something, there’s a lot of motivation there to focus on learning too, having those setup conversations like motivating in a lot of different ways, motivating because you’re explaining why you want to make sure their degree has value, that that demonstrates care, and that’s good relationship building. But also I care that you learn. I think those are things that can be really valuable, and some of that’s baked into the system without explicitly using that language. There’s a piece of care that’s present.

David: I indicated earlier that it’s possible that I’m a softie, but I am one of those people that tells my students on the first day of class that I don’t know you yet, but I’m here because I love you and I care about you, and I think this whole experience can be one that changes your life, improves your life, the life of your family for generations, there’s real reasons that we’re here. I could be making a lot more money somewhere else, but we’re here to do what we’re here to do, and I don’t think you can talk about that enough. I think it is so easy to reduce it to gameplay. I need this many points, and I get that, and what’s the cheapest, fastest, easiest way to get those points? If we don’t call them back to help them think again about why are they here. Tell them why we’re here. Explain what we’re trying to do together. If we don’t do that, we certainly can’t expect them to be responsible for providing all that context and motivation for themselves. That’s part of what we get paid to do.

John: One of the really nice things about your approach is that AI systems are getting better and better and harder to detect. I remember seeing not too long ago a video you had posted of an agentic system going in and completing all the work in a simulated course without any intervention other than providing the login ID, the password, and the URL. And in that environment, we really need to do some deterrence, since we can’t detect it reliably any longer, and this seems like this approach is independent of how AI systems develop, is that an accurate description of your view of this?

David: It is today, and that’s the goal. I don’t know, it’s the academic in me. I expect someone is going to stand up and raise a counter argument at some point that is going to burst my balloon. The way that I look at it now, it really does feel like it steps back from the way we currently think about it, and steps to the side [LAUGHTER] and steps forward again in a way that it really doesn’t matter what AI can do. You could have it log in and do all of your assignments for you fully autonomously. If you get selected for the audit, and we are going to have a conversation about it, and I’m going to watch you do it and talk through it, then it doesn’t matter if AI wrote your essay, or if you paid someone in some other country to write your essay, or if your friend wrote your essay for you, it doesn’t matter how you cheated, because this is just repeated measures of learning. I took one measure and it showed this, and now I’m going to come back and take another sample and try to find out. So I really do believe today that it’s independent of the kind of cheating that happened. Doesn’t matter what tool you used or what approach you take, so long as I can get to you for some secondary, supplemental follow up, however you want to describe it, where we can really be knee to knee, either virtually or physically, and have an experience where there’s not an opportunity for you to cheat in that same way that you cheated the first time. Now is it possible that we could log on and it could be your video avatar that’s being powered by AI. I suppose there’s some scenarios like that, but we’re not there yet.

John: So we should be safe at least for another six months to a year. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking, what’s next?

David: I’m currently playing with some technology to help a person who would want to implement this strategy be able to implement it more easily in their class. I think it’s one thing to hear it described and for it to be in a paper. For example, if it was an LTI tool that you could add to your Canvas, your Blackboard, and it would provide all the support for you and doing the random selection and pulling the subset of questions that students have gotten correct and provided all that support to you, it’d be a lot easier to use these kinds of approaches. I think for me, the next steps on this work are keep talking to people and waiting for somebody smarter than me to show me why it’s a dumb idea. And while I wait for that to happen, try to create some tools to make it possible for people to start using this approach, because we really desperately need some way to combat, some way to slow down, change the incentives around cheating.

Rebecca: Well, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciated the reframing and getting challenged to think about the problem in a different way.

David: Thank you. This was so fun. What a treat. What a blessing to be able to put an idea out into the world and have other people engage with it and then have a chance to talk about it. This is academia at its best.

John: Well, thank you, and thank you for all the work you’ve done over such a long period of time.

David: Thank you.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing Assistance provided by Fred Llerena.

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442. Not Token Gestures

While colleges and universities have made substantial progress in attracting a diverse mix of students, there are still substantial equity gaps in student outcomes. In this episode, Roberta Hurtado joins us to discuss approaches that can be used to reduce these gaps. Roberta is an associate professor in the English and Creative Writing Department here at SUNY Oswego, where she also serves as Director of Latino and Latin American Studies, and has been a fellow in the Triandiflou Institute for Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Transformative Practice. She also has served as a 2023 Fellow in the SUNY Hispanic Leadership Institute.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: While colleges and universities have made substantial progress in attracting a diverse mix of students, there are still substantial equity gaps in student outcomes. In this episode, we explore approaches that can be used to reduce these gaps.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Roberta Hurtado. Roberta is an associate professor in the English and Creative Writing Department here at SUNY Oswego, where she also serves as Director of Latino and Latin American Studies, and has been a fellow in the Triandiflou Institute for Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Transformative Practice. She also has served as a 2023 Fellow in the SUNY Hispanic Leadership Institute. Welcome Roberta.

Roberta: Hi, thank you for having me.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are… Roberta, are you having tea with us today?

Roberta: I am. It is Bigelow Cozy Chamomile,.

Rebecca: Nice. Sounds nice and relaxing, something that maybe a continuation of spring break?

Roberta: A little bit. Yeah. [LAUGHTER]

John: We’re just coming off of spring break here, and it is still below freezing here today in Oswego.

Rebecca: How about you, John?

John: I am having a nice, warm Lapsang Souchong today.

Rebecca: Nice. I have a Scottish Breakfast tea today.

John: We’ve invited you here today to discuss your new book, Not Token Gestures: Practical DEI strategies in 21st Century Higher Education. Can you tell us the origin story of this book project?

Roberta: Absolutely. So I was a SUNY HLI fellow in spring of 2023 and part of that institute is a requirement for you to do a capstone project, something that’s going to serve your university, something that’s going to help if there’s a gap or there’s an area where you can lend your expertise to. And at the time, I was working on the Triandiflou Institute fellowship as well. So I was doing them simultaneously, and we were looking at the importance of representation among faculty, and so one of the ways that you can intervene is to directly attend to the hiring practice. Where do you send job ads? What kind of language do you have in job ads? One of the things about the hiring process for faculty is that you might do really great workshops at the very beginning, everybody’s enthusiastic, you’ve got energy, it’s the summer. And then three months later, you’re still [LAUGHTER] in those very first preliminary steps, because the process itself goes over about a year from start to finish, from drafting the job ad, to sending it out, to getting people to come through, to getting them into the first- round interviews, first-round interviews, to second-round interviews. It’s just a lot that goes into it. And so what were really great workshops at the beginning are distant memories where you remember sitting and looking at a screen or being in a room, and sometimes these workshops also have aspects to them that need a lot of clarification. So, b instead of saying, “Well, send your job ads out to different types of arenas,” well, why would you do that? Normally, when we send out a job ad, let’s say in English, we would send it to the Modern Language Association job call list. But who are the people who actually look at that job call list? If you look at the demographics for who’s actually MLA members, paying members, who’s going to be accessing that, you might actually find that you have people from maybe elite institutions making up the majority of the membership, or you have people from very specific geographic backgrounds, people from very specific socioeconomic backgrounds, and so without meaning to, you’re limiting the pool of people. You’re being very selective without even realizing it. So, if you want to be more expansive in who’s getting the job calls, you need to know the history behind why it ends up being that it’s so selective, and then being able to move forward. Well, where are the other places where you can send the job ads? I don’t think people are intentionally ignoring the variety of places you can put them, but sometimes it’s just a matter of knowing where to go. So, all of this is to say I created this capstone, and while I was doing it, like the good English professor [LAUGHTER] that I am, I wrote an article. And when I wrote the article, it was a mix of different types of theories and historical background and information, and I sent it to a journal. I didn’t think it was going to inherently be a knockout of the park, but I thought I would get feedback, and the feedback that I got was that it was too narrowly tailored, that creating a process to increase representation of different types of faculty in Higher Ed was too narrowly tailored of a [LAUGHTER] focus, which, it is what it is. Maybe whoever was reading it, that’s the way they thought about it. And I channeled Michelle Obama [LAUGHTER] in that moment. I was like, “Well, I don’t think that this should end here. So what do we do?” And I pitched it to what was then Lexington Books, to say, “I’m not the only one who’s thinking about these things. How do we do work that makes higher ed fulfill its promise of academic excellence for all?” And so I went to Lexington Press. They picked up a contract to create an edited collection that was going to have voices from all different fields of academia, and from there, it moved forward to the call for papers and then a wonderful collection.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit about how you selected contributors for your project?

Roberta: Absolutely. So I was very fortunate to, in my time at HLI, get to meet a wonderful array of academics and administrators, people who genuinely care about their campuses and the people that they serve. So one person was running the pediatrics residency for one of the SUNY campuses. Another person who runs camp programs, AOP, for one campus, and their projects were speaking to the very things that my project was speaking to. So when I got the contract, I was able to solicit submissions from people who I knew were already doing this work, and I was also able to reach out to faculty from around the campus and from Oswego, who I knew that were doing work that was very similar, and nationwide. So I reached out to administrators who I knew, who are doing this work, and doctors, people who are practicing and working in education and artists as well, and asked people if they would be willing to share. And I think I was very fortunate with the timing, because where I sent the call for papers, I got a number of people responding as well. So for instance, from Virginia Tech, there’s a center there where people who were working there created a chapter, sent it to me, and then faculty had come together as well to create a chapter and send it in. So in some cases, it was a matter of the people who I knew doing this work and also getting them to sit down. Nobody has spare time. [LAUGHTER] So being able to find people who would be able to carve time out of their schedules to sit and write and create transcripts, work on artwork, there are testimonials, and there’s also personal narratives, there’s letters. So knowing people who had some things that they would like to submit, and then being able to find other people who were also in it. And one thing that was interesting about it was that the chapters are also varied. So there’s three different sections for the book. The first one is about personal responses to what’s going on with DEI in Higher Ed in the country. The second is about pedagogy, and how do you teach? How do you even create a syllabi? And then the third is about administrative tactics and techniques that can be implemented. All of the chapters were very different, and even though one might focus on, for instance, there’s a chapter on how to create a course for Introduction to Criminal Justice. Some of the techniques that are being proffered in that chapter might seem on the surface like they’re very specific to that department, but they’re not. How do you create a syllabus that has readings that students can access if they can’t afford them? In another chapter, how do you have students introduce themselves in ways that don’t put them in front of their peers and having to say things that might be a little personal, but at the same time, ensuring that the classroom is a space where they know they will be honored and respected for their differences and that their differences won’t be treated as deficiencies. How do you go about doing that? Well, these chapters offer suggestions, and again, with the idea that we all go through training to become members of higher ed, but sometimes there are things that we just don’t know or maybe weren’t made available to us when we were working to become faculty members or administrators and so these are those opportunities to also sit back and question, “what were the thought processes behind why I did that?” [LAUGHTER] You know, “why did I go about choosing these things?” So when the chapters all came in and the artwork was coming in, I was able to sit down and really see a lot of richness in each one beyond even just kind of like that surface level read, which was really exciting actually.

John: For several decades, educational institutions at all levels have put quite a bit of emphasis on DEI initiatives. But in the last year or so, a little over a year here, we’ve seen that under very heavy attack in the federal level, and also we’ve seen quite a few attacks at the level of various states. You address this a bit in your introductory chapter, which is entitled,”It’s Not a Death Knell, It’s a Call to Arms.” Can you give us an overview of the arguments in this chapter?

Roberta: So I don’t know how everybody responded to hearing about that Supreme Court case where they decided that race could not be used as part of the decision making process for admittance to higher education. I think one of the elements of it that’s been very confusing for me has been that the Supreme Court requires that questions be and decisions being narrowly tailored and limited in scope. And the verdict that came out, that was read, the decision was very clear that this was about how race as a category is used in admissions processes. The expansion of it since then to apply to things like scholarships and to apply to programs have been, if we’ve noticed, like on the state level in most cases. So we’re seeing in like Texas, and this is not a knock on Texas, I used to live in Texas, Road Runner all the way.[LAUGHTER] But we’re seeing state level and regional level now taking up the impetus and saying, “Well, we can’t talk about things that are going to make people uncomfortable,” and that’s kind of been the language of it. And we saw it during the first administration, right? There was that executive order that you couldn’t teach things that are going to make people uncomfortable, and it’s such an interesting concept that some people are not allowed to be made to feel uncomfortable, and some people are. And the question is, “why are some allowed and some are not?” And that introductory chapter, it did recognize that we do need to grieve, because it’s a dream, right? Our ideals are wonderful things. They’re goals that we are always striving to and even if we think that we’re achieving them, we always have more that we can do, and so to have made so many strides, to have been pushing and pushing for something as basic as recognition of infrastructural inequity and inequality, and then to have it be brought up as something that is the thing that’s going to be attacked… it hurts. It genuinely hurts. And for all the people who would go to college and can see themselves as deserving of an education, and then the idea that they would be turned around to and told “No, you’re not worthy of learning.” That hurts. And so we do need to grieve, but we don’t give up. We’ve been seeing this since the ‘60s. We’ve been seeing this since the ‘20s. We’ve been seeing this since the 1880s, the 1860s, we’ve been seeing this for centuries in the United States… that we don’t give up, we just change strategy. One thing that was happening around this decision, and then that came and, as you noted, especially in the most recent months, just the constant barrage of it, but we’ve also been seeing the mechanisms of this country coming forward and saying “No, you are allowed [LAUGHTER] to have opinions, you are allowed to teach content, you are allowed to have policies to make campuses spaces of learning.” I think one thing about it has been, though, that we’ve had to also take stock of what we’ve done in the past and if DEI has been treated as a side piece or as a token gesture, yeah, some of those do end up having problems within them. So if we say, “We’re going to create scholarships for a particular community.” Well, why? What was the thought process behind that? And I think sometimes, when we lose sight of what the reasoning is behind things, then things can become token gestures, and we need to reevaluate those too. Every time we’re doing something new, that’s part of the process of being in higher education too. We need to constantly be reflecting on what we’re doing, what’s working, what’s not working. And so that first chapter, it acknowledges the pain that many no doubt feel and continue to feel about what’s going on, but also a reminder, now is the time to keep going. Now is the time to regroup, think through, self critique, self analyze, come together as community and look at what we can do to move forward, because we don’t give up on our students, we don’t give up on our programs, and that’s why [LAUGHTER] we got into these fields, I would hope, or I think, because we do believe in education as just being something that should be available to all.

Rebecca: So your chapter kind of sets the stage for the first section of the book, which contains a number of essays responding to these attacks, policy attacks. What are some of the other suggestions that are raised in this section, or those actions that you’re kind of pointing to?

Roberta: So the first section of the edited collection is very personal. And I think one of the things that gets lost in the debates about DEI in Higher Ed, is that it is very personal. It is people’s very lives. It is their futures. It is people trying to figure out who they’re going to become, and especially if you’re from communities that have historically been told, “You don’t have a future,” it’s personal. You feel it in your very flesh. It’s not abstract, it’s not a concept, it’s reality. And so if we’re going to really do the work of ensuring that Higher Ed serves everyone, we need to be very cognizant of the very human toll of getting into college and being on a campus and graduating and becoming whatever we’re gonna be in the future. So that these first entries in the book are really about setting that stage, about centering the different types of ways of knowing that people have, the different types of experiences that inform who they are when they set foot on a campus or in a classroom or in an office, and then also thinking about, what are our different responsibilities to each other? Is it just that we’re going to say, “Well, we’re all different,” or is it “We’re all different and difference isn’t deficiency. Difference means an opportunity to learn and grow and be together and shift and transform and make new places and ways of knowing and ways of thinking.” It includes lots of different contributors. So there’s artists, there’s photography, there’s poetry, there’s letters to people, there’s personal statements, and these were all designed to very much center the human experience of being in higher ed.

John: The second section, as you already mentioned, focuses on strategic curriculum. Could you share with our listeners some of the suggestions that are provided by the authors in this section?

Roberta: Yeah, and actually, I’m going to give the title of one of the chapters because it was just good, “You Can’t Heal Us if You Don’t Even Know Us: Music, Medicine, and Rethinking Pre-Med Curriculum Adaptation to Community Needs.” This particular entry was a transcript with Dr. Christophe Jackson and myself, and I was asking him… he had been working on a Fulbright, which is actually now underway. And he looks at Music and Medicine. He’s done a lot of work with the jazz musicians clinic in New Orleans. The man is brilliant, or like, when you think about brilliance embodied, that’s him. But he’s very humble, and he’s very passionate about music. He’s also very passionate about medicine, and especially for his own community, but for everybody. And while we were talking, he was sharing with me, if you were going to create a music medicine class, but fundamental to this chapter is actually thinking through the values that educators bring with them when they teach. I think all of the chapters in this section really ask faculty to take a pause and think about “what are the values that you’re bringing with you that are informing who you are and how you put together a syllabus?” And it’s not because we don’t have values or don’t know them in theory when we’re walking into class, but sometimes we get so wrapped up into making a syllabus that we don’t actually pause and think, “What do I know about the people who are coming into my classroom? What do I know about the communities that I’m actually seeking to serve?” If you don’t genuinely know, and this is to create music medicine syllabi for pre-med students… if you don’t know anything about the communities you want to serve, how are you going to serve them? Medicine is not one and done. It needs to be adjusted. It needs to be organized so that the community that’s at hand can be worked with, so that it’s not just them being told, “Oh, you have to do this, this and this,” but instead, “Do you want to be healthy? What kind of things help to be healthy in your community?” From that, we see with other chapters… so for instance, there’s one about a Master’s class for people who want to go into clinical work with mental health, again, thinking through, how do we hold ourselves accountable when we’re creating syllabi, but also in ways that allow students to engage in those practices of self reflection, so that when they leave college, if they already have a profession in mind, they can consider those or use those skills to help them along their own career paths and that is something that many of us are thinking about. You come to college, you learn all of this information, but you’re also figuring out who you want to be in the next phases of your life. And so these, I don’t know what they would be called, like, not soft skills, I’m trying to think of like those kind of invisible elements of the class where you figure out, who are you going to be, how are you going to deliver information to people? When you hear critique, how do you respond? Those are elements that are fundamental to a class but often don’t get talked about. And so when you have a chapter that asks you to consider about using self in relationship to understand another, about cultural humility and empathy through storytelling and counselor training curriculum, you’re being shown those kind of tools that you can bring into your class, even if you’re not teaching a mental health practitioner class. There are other ones that are a bit more specific in terms of field and going into what’s typically called Ethnic Studies, but it’s a pan area, right? So there’s one critically teaching Asian American Studies at an Asian American Studies-less University. So Asian American Studies covers a wide range. It’s very interdisciplinary. If you don’t have an actual department, though, that’s dedicated to that learning. So for instance, Urbana Champaign has an Asian-American studies program. If you don’t have faculty who are directly dedicated to that because you don’t have a department, how do you go about teaching it? So they actually offer a syllabi that they’ve crafted, engaging students, engaging faculty, getting workshops together, doing learning activities. So there’s one for Angel Island, where you get to learn about people’s experiences traveling to the United States and what sort of scenarios they would have encountered. These are very real learning opportunities, very tangible learning opportunities that can have major impacts on students and again, helping them see who they are in the learning process. So even if you’re not teaching Asian-American Studies, this is an assignment that you can then adapt to your own models, to model in your own classes that maybe you hadn’t thought about before or even known that that was a resource available to you. So section two tries to offer different strategies. They might look field-specific on the surface, but when you actually get to look into the chapter more deeply, you find all of these different techniques that are fun in many cases, and really thoughtful and engaging.

Rebecca: I love the wide variety of offerings that you’ve described in these sections. Now we’re fortunate to be working at a public institution in a state system that’s actively working to provide more equitable Higher Ed outcomes, but historically marginalized populations are still experiencing lower rates of persistence to graduation. What are some of the sources of these inequities?

Roberta: There was an article that just came out, and it’s these scientists trying to explain why there is intergenerational poverty. And since we have all of these things, like social programs that are in theory, designed to, quote, unquote, “get people out of it,” then it must be genetic. The article just came out in like 2026. So in 2026 we are still hearing iterations of eugenics propaganda coming out as science. Because what would make sense if we have all of these social programs that people just don’t seem to be rising and fundamental to this study was a refusal to acknowledge that intergenerational poverty is not a matter of genes. That even if there are social programs that are available, are they inherently designed to help people get out of intergenerational poverty? Or are they meant to, and I’m going to quote Martin Espada here, “teach you to shuffle forward for charity.” If they are designed to help you to live a life that you are proud of, to cultivate the skills that you wake up in the morning and are thrilled to have, my guess would be that you would then be able to engage the world around you in a way that is meaningful to you. If we’re thinking about then how education links to that, then you would be attending college, and you would be dedicated to an education that would allow you to actuate those very things. But if we’re not in that system, if we’re not in that world, if we’re in a world that’s designed to teach you to shuffle forward, then you’re not being taught to cultivate those best parts of yourself. And even if you are able to attain some of those aspects, there’s a lot behind it that just isn’t there for you. When we talk about in introductory classes, for instance, for students who are coming in, if you are from a school that… and we’re seeing this more now, and I’m not trying to throw shade on people who are all about technology… I am not… but science is still showing that children learn better with direct, one-on-one contact with a human being. But if you’re from schools that highly emphasize, or heavily emphasize the use of technology, rather than that direct one-on-one attention because of class size or whatever, those children are going to be learning differently than children who go to affluent schools where they do have lower child-to-teacher ratios. And so you start to see from very, very early ages, disparities in what children are learning. And so then you get students coming to college who genuinely want to learn, genuinely want to finish their degree. But what support mechanisms do you have there that are, one, going to actually help them get through the program in a way that’s responsible? And the next thing is, how are you going to do so in a way where the student is able to cultivate an identity that is meaningful to them? Where they’re not just a number, where they’re not just a tuition payment or whatever it is. And we’re starting to hear that economic descriptions more and more about education, and when we do that, then these students who are really struggling to try and make it through, ‘Do you see yourself as part of the campus?” There’s these discussions about belonging. We’re in campuses from an educational model that was designed centuries ago with very specific people in mind about who was going to attend them. What we’re trying to do now is retrofit them to meet these needs and that very real question that I think this book takes up is, “What are the things that we can retrofit, and what are the things that we can just imagine as new and run with those new things too?” I think when we talk about social inequalities, too, it becomes a space where people can start to feel very defensive, and that breaks down conversations, because it’s like, “Well, you know, this money is going over here, and it should be doing all of these things that make differences,” but it’s about how everyone’s involved in it. Everyone from children from rural communities where the school year is dependent on harvest season, to children whose families move because of harvest season, to people who are veterans, to people who are single parents and trying to get degrees so that they can get jobs that will hopefully pay so that they can send their kids to a better school, and that kind of process. So when we talk about these social inequalities and how they show up in college settings, we’re talking about this large, interconnected, intertwined ball of threads and strings, and pulling at one or the other might not be the thing that helps a student get through maybe all of them are. But I think this book offers some insights. When you have students who need more assistance, what sort of things can we do to offer that help in the classroom, and then also administratively?

John: So students come in with different backgrounds because of the quality of the schools and differences in parents’ education and other things which affect where students start at when they enter the school system, and we have a lot of systemic inequality. But, when we have the students coming into our classes, what can faculty do to help reduce some of these equity gaps in outcomes, to create more of a sense of belonging and to help all students be more successful?

Roberta: So read Section two of this book. [LAUGHTER] I mean, some of the things are about very technical pieces, So like, how are things laid out, what types of resources are available with the syllabus and so on. But then there are sometimes things that are less obvious, and they come from the things that we were taught when we were getting our educations that we replicate. When we have a professor we like, we replicate what they did, because it obviously worked. But I think there is some privileging. For instance, reading. Something as basic as that, but also that students are bringing with them different types of knowledge, different types of critical ways of knowing, and that many times, those aren’t being represented in the content of the classes, in the curriculum, because we’ve been taught to focus on one particular thing or one particular way of knowing. And here I’m thinking, this isn’t in the book, but just if I’m a student and I’m not used to having math classes where I see any of the things I care about represented, and all of a sudden I’m being shown how math is actually important in all of these different realms of my life taught from a way that my community speaks, then I’m going to learn it differently than if I’m shown something on the board and then somebody steps away. The ways that I’m going to engage the space, the sort of questions, and this is from section two, now, how do you just even set out the room so that when students come in, they have space to sit down? How do you go about offering assignments? What sort of options do you have for them? So if you offer, let’s say if you have a reading list, and you are requiring students to purchase books and they have to have physical books, when do the grants that help them purchase books come out? If you’re setting them a text that they need to buy and they need to be reading before that grant comes out, they can’t afford the book, that’s why they’re getting the grant. So maybe adjusting when you’re going to start assigning texts that they need to purchase and front loading things like articles that maybe you can give online or things that you can print and give out to them. Simple adjustment, doesn’t call anyone out, but takes into account that some of the students in the class might very well only be able to buy books as soon as that grant comes through on the first Friday of the semester. In other cases, things like having policies that allow students to step out of the class in the event that something becomes triggering for them, not knowing if students have certain types of traumatic experiences in their histories. So saying, “If you need to leave for 15 minutes, step out of the room for 15 minutes, come back in, we have resources available to you.” Things like having, on the campus itself… so this isn’t so much controlled by faculty, but administratively… food kitchens where students who might be experiencing difficulties being able to purchase food, where they can go and get items that they need. Things like professional development workshops on campus. So students who are the first in their families to be graduating college might be the first in their families to be going for these professional level careers. Do they know how to choose a suit that fits? That might sound real simple to some people, like, “Yeah, you don’t want gapping around the pockets, and the shirt has to fall in a certain way.” But if this isn’t your family, you have no idea, and it can be very intimidating to ask for help. So does the campus offer those kinds of services? If they offer professional level clothing, do they offer the other part of it that maybe shows students these other skills that we take for granted as everybody having, but that a lot of students might not have, and so being able to access that, and in a way that doesn’t call them out, that doesn’t act as if it’s charity, but instead, this is part of the experience, and everyone should have it.

Rebecca: Really appreciate, as a designer, you talking about the difference between designing for equity in the s tart versus retrofitting something that was definitely not designed with equity in mind at the back end, right? Those experiences are different, our ability to create equitable experiences are actually quite different under those different circumstances. One of the things that you were just talking about points to the need that faculty have to understand some of the other systems that exist that are outside of the curriculum or outside of their subject matter, like the timing of when grants might be available, or how financial aid works,[LAUGHTER] because those actually have significant impact on the experiences of students at our institutions, and we can make design choices that think about some of those things that are in place, that maybe aren’t as easy to change, or they certainly aren’t going to change at the same speed [LAUGHTER] that we can adapt or adjust a class. I really appreciate that thought. Can you talk a little bit more about, maybe the responsibility faculty might want to take for better understanding some of these other systems, so that they can account for things like this?

Roberta: So it’s a hard balance, right? Because, on the one hand, and this is something I’m very cognizant of, I have curriculum that I have to teach, and I have to make sure that I deliver it accurately and responsibly. It’s easy to get lost in that and we have all of these other pressures. Because teaching alone isn’t it. There’s teaching, there’s service, there’s scholarship, and there’s conferences, and sometimes you get to the end of the day and spend 13 hours, and you know that there’s more [LAUGHTER] for the next day. So I think part of this is not so much adding to the plate, but instead shifting. And I’ve been hearing about the use of the language of shifting. How are we just going to shift over rather than asking faculty to have these extra heavy loads when there’s already so much on the plate? And I think that part of that can be done using mechanisms that we already have. So things like academic affairs retreats, professional development workshops that our campuses offer, even when we go to conferences or things like that. But having people, instead of saying, “Here’s a list of things you have to put on your syllabus,” and then moving on, having opportunities for, for instance, financial aid to come in and meet with faculty, and maybe it’s more of there’s a lot of us, [LAUGHTER] there’s few of them, there’s more of us. So having them come to like department meetings and actually walking us through when certain things will hit and when they don’t. I know about, for instance, a grant for books, because my first semester on campus, students told me about it. Before that, and I know we’re not supposed to do this, but I would just say, “You need a copy of the reading? Here’s my book. Do what you need to do. Just give me the book back before class, so that I have time to prepare.” And you know, they’d be photocopying or taking photos with their phones. But then they told me about this grant, and I was like, “Well, that’s essential to know.” [LAUGHTER] If you can’t buy the book, you can’t buy the book. So then looking at library resources, showing them how to get access to books from interlibrary loan if they’re like, “I genuinely cannot afford this book.” What can you get through Interlibrary Loan? What sort of resources do we have? So having workshops like that with faculty can be very helpful, but it has to be timed. So, you know, we have due dates as well. So having syllabi available by a certain date means that we have to be thinking about spring semester like the year before. So it’s about finding those timings that work with faculty schedules and requirements from the campus itself, and offering those and also, I think the importance of professional development time for faculty, I think across the nation, is kind of hard to find time for right now, but it’s a necessity. If we can sit down and say, “Okay, here are the actual skills that I want them to have? What are the variety of fun things that go along with those?” If I want them to be considering how to find an argument in a poem, I am not a technology person, so bear with me, can I have them distill it down to a meme? (I just learned about memes not too long ago.) And then, “How do I get them to work with that?” So this is using their own sensibilities, drawing from their own cultural knowledges, their own backgrounds, thinking through what sort of resources they have available to them. They’re still going to know how to be able to distill an argument. They’re still going to be able to identify and articulate what is it this person wants me to get and how are they trying to persuade me, but doing so in a manner that allows them to cultivate their own knowledges and not saying, “Well, this is the only way to do it. This is the only option that we have.” But instead offering these varieties. Now, as an English professor, I am always going to end up coming back to the written word, and that’s okay, there’s nothing wrong with that. But what are the flexibilities that are available around that? That students can engage? What different angles can we offer for students to come into the conversation from, while still holding standards and working with students to find that they are very capable of achieving these things? I’m thinking of the book, Nuyorganics, and it’s this brilliant book… it came out a few years back… but about having students cultivate their cultural knowledges and organic intellectualism, combining that to create different types of assignments in the classroom that then move forward. But we need time to be able to do this. And so, in a perfect world, we would have time to do it. So maybe this is something then, that individual departments can start thinking through. If this matters to us, if it’s not a token gesture that we want academic excellence for all, let’s create times and some of the stuff that’s mandatory, like meetings or whatever the case may be, where everybody gets together and actually have somebody come in as a guest and speak to us about some of the things that they’re doing that work, or maybe some processes for finding things that might work for them. I think key to this all too, though, is that it’s not about not making standards or things for students, but instead helping them cultivate the very real skills that they need for success. And that’s part of the conversation too and I think going back to the question about students finding ways to make it through college versus some who are not, this is part of that whole complex system. What resources do they have, and do they know how to, from their own lens and from their own styles, engage these? That there isn’t just one way of going about things or one way of doing it that’s correct, but all these varieties that are available to them.

John: As Rebecca noted, we’re lucky to live in a state where there is still support for diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives and attempts to try to make things work better for all students, but we do see a number of states that are imposing some really serious restrictions on what people are allowed to teach. They’re redefining our history, redefining science, and limiting what can be talked about in terms of many issues. What advice would you give to faculty who are trying to help students in that environment?

Roberta: I think the first thing would be, know the law and not the law as you’re being told it’s the law, but what is the actual letter of the law. If you know the letter of the law, if you know what it actually says, and you have a cohort of people that similarly know what it actually says, you can make decisions about your response rather than being caught in the moment and having to react. And I think that one struggle people are having is that they’re being put into situations where they’re having to react on the spot. And it’s not that their reactions are bad. They’re human, and what they’re responding to [LAUGHTER] in many cases just doesn’t make sense. I will give them that. But we also have to acknowledge that the paradigm has shifted, and we cannot respond the way that we thought it worked when it’s already shifted. We have to know what’s happening now and what is our relationship to that. I heard a statistic recently about people’s desire for their children to go to college and get degrees, and, you know, it’s lower than it was 20 years ago. That’s about faith in education and faith in the learning process, and in states where people seem to be vilified for wanting to give education books, being thrown away, it’s hard to maintain faith in the very things that we know in our core are right, which is that you don’t discriminate against people because of their race, their ethnicity, their socioeconomic backgrounds, their gender, their sexuality, and disability. And we’re thinking about different ways of knowing. We know this. And I think sometimes the small group of people that are shouting the loudest seem to be the ones that make up the majority, and they don’t. We’re seeing pushes against restriction of political thought. We’re seeing pushes that are being successful, against the attempt to restrict access of education to certain communities. The momentum has to maintain though, we can’t back down from it, and we have to also remember that we need to remind people we are supporting them, that we are here for them, that we will do what we can to support them, that we have not given up the fight, right? It’s not a death knell. It is a call to arms, and we are ready. We might need breaks. [LAUGHTER] Some of us might need to rest every now and again, and that’s totally fine, but we don’t give up. We keep going, and we will continue to be supportive.

John: In line with what you’ve just suggested, back in 1853, Theodore Parker said that “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.” And this is a quote that was frequently repeated by both Martin Luther King and by President Obama. Do you think we’re going to get back on a better path in the near future?

Roberta: There’s a quote from a book called King Solomon’s Mines, British fiction from I guess a century almost now, ago. And the book is very problematic, but there’s a line in it that goes, “Where there is life, there is hope.” And as much as the book is super messed up, and I’m not advocating anyone read it, I take great comfort in that, that we always have the ability to move forward, that if there is life anywhere, that we can always continue to cultivate the best parts of ourselves to make the world a better place and I think for a long time, we haven’t necessarily been encouraged to cultivate those best parts of ourselves, when you turn on the media, when you turn on the television, whatever it might be, seeing people screaming at each other, seeing people waving flags in each other’s faces, on both sides. And we think about like the polarization of the United States, this has gone on, you know, it’s older than me. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t those of us who really believe in education. That really believe in the ability to learn and grow and find those better parts of ourselves and be open to change. And change is not easy, change is difficult. It hurts. When we grow, we go through growth spurts and our bodies hurt. We grow teeth and our gums hurt, but it’s okay, because on the other side of that, growth is something very real. And right now, we are in a space of growth, and I turn to Gloria Anzaldúa here, because I think about the path to “conocimiento,” which means the path to coming to consciousness. And it goes up, it goes down, it goes left, it goes right, it spirals, and sometimes you think you’ve got it, and nope, you’re right at the beginning again. But if you can engage the process, you will start coming into these movements of complexity and being able to figure out new realities for yourself. I do think that things will get better. I don’t know how long it will take. I would like to say tomorrow, and maybe for some of us it will be, apparently, the planets just realigned themselves last week, and I take great hope in that. [LAUGHTER] But genuinely, I do think that there is hope for the future. When I hear some of the things that my students talk about… I just went through midterms, and seeing some of these midterms just renews your faith in everything, because you’re like, “Thank you. Thank you for believing you could do something that was different. Thank you for trusting the process and yourself enough to engage in this, even if it was new and scary and different.” It’s okay to cultivate those parts of their imaginations and creativity in combination with critical thinking. I think one of the major attacks right now is on critical thinking skills. We don’t give up on those. We hunker down with them. That might make us dangerous, but it also means that we know how to ask good questions, and it’s going to be those people who are able to ask good questions that are going to lead us into the future. I think about Brenda Marie Osbey. She was the poet laureate of Louisiana a few years back, and I got to meet her one time, and she said, “the job of the artist isn’t to answer the question. The job of the artist is to ask them and then to follow these questions through all of their different pathways and find all these nuances and things that we weren’t thinking about or things that we weren’t considering and bringing those to light.” Yeah, that’s it, that ability to think, the ability to create, the ability to continue moving. We do have a lot of pain that we haven’t dealt with, centuries in the making that we do have to deal with, and maybe that’s part of why we’re in this moment now. But that doesn’t mean we can’t come out the other side of it. We just have to have faith that there is another side of it, and I genuinely believe there is.

Rebecca: Given that John has already asked about your crystal ball. I’ll ask a follow up. We always end by asking, what’s next? It could be personally, professionally, the book, any way you want to spin it.

Roberta: So I have a book chapter coming out in a collection called ¿Y Yo También?, and it’s about Latinas and the Me Too movement. And it’s got creative pieces in it, it’s got scholarly works in it, but it’s designed so that anyone can read it, which is awesome, because sometimes we have these very jargon laden conversations about people’s very real experiences that can make it hard for everyone to join in the conversation. So I love this book. It’s coming out with Rutgers University Press this coming fall. The faculty member is in New York, her name is Melissa, and again, coming out this fall. I have a second monograph that I just finished called, But is it sexy? that looks at representation of eroticism in Puerto Rican women’s literature, which was incredible to get to research and write and I’m looking forward to that. Moving forward, I’m going to be presenting at NADOHE, which is the National Association of Diversity Officers in Higher Ed at the end of March. And then next spring, I get to teach poetry, which I’m excited about. And then this semester, I have two more guest artists coming as part of a larger series. Denise Chávez will be joining us, as well as Melissa Rivero at the end of the semester. So these are all major moments of excitement, and I very much look forward to.

John: Well, thank you. It was great talking to you, and I hope your book makes an impact on people.

Roberta: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Rebecca: Yeah, thank you for all your work.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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441. Teaching = Coaching

Coaches and teachers work to develop skills by providing structured learning environments, motivational strategies, and individual feedback. In this episode, Christian Fauria and Constanza Bartholomae join us to discuss the similarities among coaching, teaching, and the work of educational developers.

Christian is a former NFL tight end who played 13 seasons and won two Super Bowl Championships with the New England Patriots, and a national champion at the University of Colorado. Following his retirement from football, Christian transitioned into sports media, working as a college football analyst for ESPN and CBS, while co-hosting a radio show on WEEI in Boston. He is now a Professional in Residence at Bryant University in the Communication and Language Studies Department, teaching courses in sports broadcasting and organizational leadership in sports. Constanza is the Interim Director of the Center of Teaching Excellence at Bryant University.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Coaches and teachers work to develop skills by providing structured learning environments, motivational strategies, and individual feedback. In this episode, we discuss the similarities among coaching, teaching, and the work of educational developers.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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Rebecca: Our guests today are Christian Fauria and Constanza Bartholomae. Christian is a former NFL tight end who played 13 seasons and won two Super Bowl Championships with the New England Patriots, and a national champion at the University of Colorado. Following his retirement from football, Christian transitioned into sports media, working as a college football analyst for ESPN and CBS, while co-hosting a radio show on WEEI in Boston. He is now a Professional in Residence at Bryant University in the Communication and Language Studies Department, teaching courses in sports broadcasting and organizational leadership in sports. Constanza is the Interim Director of the Center of Teaching Excellence at Bryant University. Welcome Christian and welcome back, Constanza.

Christian: Thanks for having us. It’s my first time. I’m excited.

John: It’s great to meet you. Today’s teas are:… Christian, are you drinking any tea?

Christian: I do. I call this my hearty mug. I got a little green tea in there. Nothing but the tea, no sugar, no nothing, no additives. I keep it clean. That’s what I got this morning.

Rebecca: That’s the way to do it.

John: And Constanza?

Constanza: I’ve got my favorite tea. It’s African Nectar from Mighty Leaf. And if you’re someone who doesn’t like tea, or you’re up for an adventure, this is the tea to try. I have convinced many folks who are not tea drinkers, that tea is an option with this particular one.

Christian: Nice.

John: And Rebecca?

Rebecca: I have a Scottish Breakfast tea today, John.

John: An old favorite.

Rebecca: It is.

John: And I have a Lapsang Souchong today, a smoked tea.

Christian: Ooh, fancy.

John: it is. It smells like there’s a wood fire right next to me, and I’m hoping that’s not the case, because I am in an office building here on campus.

Rebecca: We invited you both here today to discuss the working relationship that you’ve developed at Bryant University. Can you each tell us a little bit about how you began working together?

Christian: Okay, so I’ll make a long, long story short, because this will take about an hour. So like you mentioned in the intro, played in the NFL, worked in media forever, got fired some random day, and then just kind of walked around trying to figure out, like, what was I going to do next? I had no idea what I was going to do, and I decided that I wanted to teach. I never wanted to coach a sport other than my kids, because coaches in the college level and in the pro level, they have no life. I wanted a life, so I decided that, with some input from my wife, I said, Yeah, let’s do that. So what I did is I created a syllabus about broadcasting, things that I thought were important. I sent it out an email to like, 10 different schools here in the Northeast region. The only school that did not reply to me was Harvard, and then all the other nine replied to me, and then I just narrowed it down to Bryant. And I’ve never taught before other than a sport, so I was really kind of lost as far as how I should go about it. I knew what I wanted to say, but I didn’t really know how to form it. I didn’t know how to create it. I didn’t know a grading scale. I was very, very green. And when I found out about the CTE center, I met Constanza, and she was like a beacon of hope for me, because she really just explained things as simple as possible for me to understand them. And not only was she good at the technical side. I thought that she was really good at the emotional and physical side as well, because I had no real belief in myself that I could do it. I know I could say what I wanted to say, but I didn’t really know if I could actually get my message across. And then I hijacked all her time, because that’s what I basically did. I hijacked all her time. I would come in there unannounced. I would ask her at the last minute: “I’m stressing out. My class is in five minutes. What should I do?” She was always available. She was always encouraging, she always motivated me the right way. And for me, it was like she was doing all the same things that my coaches did throughout my 13 year NFL career, my five year college career, and then my high school career. It was this exact same thing. It was just a different message, a different tool that she was using, as far as, instead of, like blocking and catching, it was rubrics and teaching philosophies and structure. So again, to me, she became such a good, valuable asset, and then she just became a good friend. So that’s my approach to how we met and how we started working together.
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Constanza: And on my end, Christian’s department chair said, “I’ve got someone for you to meet. We’ve got this new faculty member. You’re going to love him. And oh, by the way, he used to play for the Patriots.” Now, what his department chair didn’t know? What Christian didn’t know is because I grew up in a family where my dad was European and not into American football, didn’t understand it. And my mom also did not watch sports. I knew nothing about football, like I’ve heard of the Patriots, of course, I live in Massachusetts. I didn’t know who Christian was. I didn’t know how famous he was, what his reputation was. So in comes walking this very energetic and excited human being. And again, I had no idea about anything about who he was or what his subject matter was. And I went home and I said “I had a really cool teaching consult today” to my husband, and he’s like, “Who is it with?” And I was like, “Christian Fauria? And he’s like, “No way. I used to listen to him on the radio on the way home from work.” And I was like, “Oh, that’s cool,” but the more that we interacted, the more I got to know Christian and I was like, “Wow, what a great hire. You’ve got someone who’s so full of life and personality and experience,” and although a lot of times what will happen in the Center for Teaching Excellence is that folks will come in and I don’t necessarily have the same subject matter expertise as they do. I’ve never had, clearly, a career in football or in sports broadcasting. I get to hear about what matters to them, what makes them excited, what they love to learn about. And then we get to talk about, okay, how do we convey this over to your students? And then on top of that, as you both have seen from us talking with Christian he’s just really, really funny and just uplifting and human sunshine. So that was an added benefit. Yeah, for sure,

John: Christian, your experience of coming in without much teaching experience or without much of a background in effective teaching practices is something that’s pretty common for many faculty, but your reaction to it was a little bit different than most faculty. Most faculty just tend to rely on what they had experienced when they were students, and that’s not always the best way of preparing for teaching at the college level. What made you decide to approach the teaching center? Was it a suggestion from the chair, or was this something that you just wanted to find out more about before getting into the class?

Christian: So I had an idea of how I wanted to approach the class, but I graduated college in 1995, so it’d been a long time, and I never really had any professors that I remember making any sort of impact on my life whatsoever. The impact that was made on my life was always from my coaches. So I really wanted to find a way to coach the students or teach the students like I was coached and I didn’t know what I was allowed to do, I didn’t know how far I could go, and that’s why I came to Constanza. I was like, “Listen, this is kind of my idea,” so I really relied on her a lot, to mold my class and to guide me through how I should do things and why I should do these things. Because I really wanted to create, like, first day standards. I wanted to really hammer that home, and I really want to let them know that this is not your ordinary class, like what you’re used to. We’re going to turn that on its head. So yes, that was kind of my approach in the very beginning. Now it’s changed over time, but the initial idea was just that, like, here’s all this information I have. It reminds me of like someone who waits for the last minute to do their taxes, and they got, like, receipts everywhere, and then Constanza’s my accountant. I said, “Here, fix it.” “Okay, how much time do I got?” “20 minutes.” That’s kind of the way I was. And I never left there, I never left her office, scared. I always left her office with not necessarily a pep talk, but just a reassurance that I was doing it the right way, and I shouldn’t listen to the insecurities in my head about what I thought the students were going to think about me or say about me while I was saying it.

Constanza: I think to add on to that, we all need to feel like the work that we are doing matters and is important. And I think that that’s really, if there is a secret sauce to teaching, it’s okay, how do we work with faculty to remind them about why they’re here and why what they’re doing matters, especially in an age where we’re talking a lot about a lack of focus or attention or disengagement. I was listening to Jessica Riddell talk at the AAC&U annual meeting, and she said, “I’ve been thinking a lot about the time that we’re in, and I don’t know if necessarily it’s disruption, but a rupture in the educational system, first with the covid pandemic, then with the advent of generative AI, and so there’s a lot of reworking going on in the teaching field right now, trying to really explain, like, what is our teaching philosophy? Why is what we’re doing important?” And so I think that working with faculty in the educational development space, like how I’m able to work with Christian is such an honor, because we really get to help them re- explore their passions and think about how they can translate that over. And one thing that I noticed about Christian right away is, as he said, he cared a lot. I know he’s made comments and said, “How can I do this in 20 minutes?” But actually, we were meeting so much more frequently than that, and he was thinking things through and planning out his whole semester. And so in certain ways, I was like, “Okay, well, we’re in January. Let’s not worry about April for a little bit, but let’s focus on the next few weeks.” I think, in that sense, I knew here’s someone who cares about their students, their outcomes, but also their well being, and that is someone I can really, really work with, because ultimately, at the end of the day, I tell my students, I care about you learning content, but I care more about how you feel in the classroom. And that was Christian. He’s like, “I’ve got the content in my head. I’m ready to go, but how do I make sure that it lands in a way where students are able to accept and interpret it, are able to digest it, and are able to show me that they can demonstrate understanding and meaning from it.” So it was really like the educational development perfect connection, if you will, and reminded me also of why I do what I do. So it had that impact as well.

Christian: Now, that was well said. That’s exactly how I feel about it.

Rebecca: Coaching is really relational. I’ve been observing my daughter, who is ice skating and working with coaches. And the way coaches work with individuals is often different depending on their personality and who they are. So I’m curious how you see the relationships between coaching and teaching, because I know that I’ve been observing successful coaching and thinking about, “Hmm, what is that secret sauce, and how does that translate over to teaching?” And some of it is like this coachability piece, is this willingness to accept some feedback, or wanting to have a good impact on the learner, whoever that learner might be.

Christian: I’ll go first on this one. So there’s an old saying in the sports ranks where the players don’t care about what you know until they know that you care. And I would say that’s exactly the same way, at least that’s my approach to it. And it looks different for every teacher, every coach, and I would say it looks different for every classroom, because there needs to be expectations, there needs to be trust, there needs to be accountability, there needs to be passion, there needs to be knowledge, all that stuff. It’s all the same thing. I’m telling you. It’s no different from coaching and teaching, at least from where I sit, because I’ve seen it now, and I’ve only been there for over a year, and I know that I have to show some sort of appreciation for them showing up, trying. It doesn’t mean I let them pull a fast one on me, because it goes both ways, and so I echo that sentiment to a T. And the old way of doing things in sports overall is gone the way of the typewriter. Nobody is hardcore authoritarian. It’s more transactional now in sports, based on all the different ways athletes go to school say, “I’ll give you money if you do this.” That’s not the way it is in the classroom, but I would call it, and I don’t know if I can curse on this show, there needs to be a high level of a give-a-shit factor, like you have to give a shit about what you’re doing and what you’re saying. And I think it’s very, very obvious to the students, they’re on to you quick, so you can’t pull a fast one over them. And Costanza, that’s kind of the way I feel about it.

Constanza: I think, as teachers, we’re helping students find meaning in whatever subject matter we’re teaching. And Arthur Brooks is coming out with a new book next week titled The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness. And so Oprah interviewed him last week, I think, and I listened to the podcast episode, and I was like, “Tell me more. You’re a professor and you’re studying the meaning of life. What is that?” And so for him, his definition of happiness is combined with three things: satisfaction, enjoyment and meaning. And he found in his work that meaning is where folks under 30, especially college-age students, perhaps we’re struggling the most, and so I think our job as instructors is to deliver that sense of meaning in our subject matter and really connect the dots to students now more than ever, in an age of generative AI, where folks can look up information and disinformation very easily, we need to show them the humanness behind it, the application behind it. It’s so important. The same happens in the educational development space and in the coaching space. If someone feels like they do not matter or that you wouldn’t notice them if they were absent in your class, they are far less likely to be engaged. It’s very important in my work that in the space that I’m in, where faculty come in and they are vulnerable, they’re usually talking to me about something that isn’t working. I do get folks come in and say, “This worked great. I’m so excited.” Or occasionally I’ll get someone that’ll say, “I want to upend my classroom. Let’s totally do things differently.” But usually they’re coming to me because they’re struggling with something in the classroom, and it’s really hard to be vulnerable if the person that you’re speaking with doesn’t know you or isn’t willing to be vulnerable with you in turn. So I always talk about my teaching failures, or even just to the degree that I feel comfortable, of course, and even just things that I’m going through in life at the level that I feel comfortable with, because I feel like the faculty that I work with need to get to know me. We need to develop a relationship of trust, and then we can talk about all right. “Well, here are some things that I think might need to be changed.” So that if I’m giving them feedback, even if it might be not exactly what they wanted to hear or might be difficult, they know, okay, the person who’s talking to me on the other end of this conversation cares about me as a human first and as an educator second, and they then feel more comfortable letting me know exactly what’s going on without having to sugarcoat it, or they feel comfortable walking in my door in the first place. So I think, in that sense, if we’re working in teaching centers to coach faculty on strategies that they can then use to coach students. It’s really developing what Peter Felton and Leo Lambert talk about in terms of relationship-rich education that expands beyond the classroom space that really makes a campus community full of that. I also think too, reminding ourselves that just like students who are first year that come onto campus and are new, our faculty who are new are experiencing that too. Christian is a very energetic and outgoing person, but it was his first year on campus. So like, how do we connect our faculty to different folks on campus that they can reach out to if they’re in need of support or their students are? How do we let them know about what’s available to them to make sure that they feel supported and seen? It’s not something that we always talk about, but establishing that for faculty is really, really important in faculty development work. So I think our job really is to connect and to help folks discover or rediscover their own meaning, why they matter, so that they can then, in turn, do that for their students.

Christian: Let me jump in real quick, because I do think this is important. So how do you connect? In the pros, you’re with the same group of guys for eight months, seven days a week, nine hours a day. So it’s easy to make a connection. It’s so much harder to make a real connection in college, teaching kids. So you may see them once a week, twice a week, for two hours a week. Who knows? I would say this, and it’s a pain in the butt, learn their names. Tell them you’re going to learn their names. I try to do it. I challenge, say, “Listen, by the end of the semester, if I don’t know everybody’s first and last name, if I can’t say it correctly, I will get everybody one letter grade higher than what they already have.” So I put my butt on the line because I do think most of them kind of feel like I’m just like a finance major. I’m a whatever major. I do think learning their names, or at least trying to learn their names, in the short period of time that you’re with them, I think makes a huge, huge connection. Right off the bat, I let them know I’m gonna learn everybody’s name, and it’s freaking hard, man, because there’s so many damn kids. We got so much going on, but that’s one of my goals, always.

John: And that is a topic we’ve explored on past episodes of the podcast, and specifically with Michelle Miller, who wrote a book on how to learn names. And we’ll share a link to that in the show notes. It’s a great book, and it’s a short book, too. It is difficult to learn names. You both emphasize the importance of building connection and building trust to set a foundation for everything else that happens in the classroom. What are some of the other ways in which coaching is similar to teaching, or some of the things that you may have learned from coaching that you brought into the classroom in terms of things like increasing student motivation, because we’ve all been concerned about students becoming a bit more disengaged over the last several years.

Constanza: I think, apart from getting to know your students’ names, genuinely learning who they are as individuals, is something that, unless you’re in a classroom full of 300 students… at Bryant, we do not have that. We have the luxury of having smaller class sizes. And there are many ways that you can do that. We’ve talked for years about intro surveys, but I also think too asking deeper questions. In today’s age, we need to ask questions that really ask our students what they’re hoping to gain from class, but also ask them what would make you feel like you belonged in this classroom space, or what type of classroom space has been a really great one for you, and what did that instructor do and why? So that we understand how they are able to best flourish in the classroom space. And I think that this happens in coaching a lot, too. If we ask folks, what’s the best way for you to receive feedback, some people might want you to start with accountability up front. And they might want you to say, “Well, you told me your goal was this, and you haven’t been meeting it.” For me, that would hit me with so much guilt that if somebody coached me in that way, it’s like when my husband says, Constanza, “I know that you were supposed to be working on your dissertation today. Did you do any writing?” And I’m like, “Oh, I didn’t get any writing today. I’m sorry.” Like, if I start off with that, I get really nervous. So I know, for me, that isn’t always the best way to go about it. Sometimes I have days that are anomalies where I want that, but asking students like, “What’s the best way for you to get feedback? …and sticking to that as best as you can.” I do think we need to personalize the educational space more. I think it’s hard, because just like Christian said, we’ve seen the educational space change. We didn’t talk about belonging as much as we do now, even 10 years ago. Now, it’s so crucial. I think the challenge is balancing that, because instructors are humans too, and so, for them, they’re one instructor, maybe in a room of 35 students, times three or four classes. So it’s working with instructors to coach them into okay, how do you build those connections with your students? And how do you do it in a way that isn’t going to cause you to burn out? Perhaps that’s by asking better questions. Perhaps that’s by changing the way that we ask the questions. Perhaps that’s by talking to them about different ways that they can synthesize that information, or working with their teaching center to do that. I think those are the ways that we start to do it today, because students want that. And if students feel like their instructor doesn’t care about them, they are going to be less engaged. And if faculty feel like the teaching center on their campus is not a friendly place, or is not a place where they feel comfortable or safe sharing, they’re not going to go there. And so we need to make sure that we’re really listening to the people that we are working with, whether they be students or faculty or administrators or staff, and speak their language in terms of feedback, in terms of praise. And that’s another thing too. I think in teaching, we’re always looking for ways in which our students are struggling, that we forget sometimes, that we need to also give praise and feedback on what they’re doing right, and why. Because so often we’ll see our high performers and say, “Oh, well, Susie’s fine,” like she’s got this, she did really great on this assessment, and we don’t tell them how they did really great on the assessment. And that can be a form of isolation on campus as well, if those high performers are not feeling seen. And so that’s another thing I think we really need to be thoughtful about, and we also need to be thoughtful about the faculty members that we see spotlighted a lot. They’re still human, checking in with them, seeing how they’re doing, asking what they did over the weekend. Those small things really, really matter, and can help someone feel like they’re connected or disconnected to campus.

Christian: So Constanza, you said something I was literally cracking up. That’s why the connection between the two worlds, I think, is fascinating to me. If I respected and knew that my coach cared about me and was pushing me and was challenging me the right way, and I went out there and I let them down. I felt like crap. I felt like crap because I appreciated the effort that they put into developing me, and it’s those uncomfortable conversations, because, like, I sit there, I walk in there, man, I feel like these kids are fragile… You got to be real careful with what you say to one and how you say it, and you don’t want to say the wrong word or stick your foot in your mouth. I think they want, and I don’t have a better phrase for this, Constanza, maybe we can workshop this… tough teaching. I think they want it. I think they want to be challenged. They want somebody to challenge them. Because that, to me, is like the “Oh,” like, “this was really worth it. This is a great class. I learned a lot,” and that’s what I do. And I can tell the students listen. Some of them don’t care at all. They just want to get through it. But I would say 80% of them are dialed in, and it always makes me feel better when I see them accepting the tough teaching. This was not good enough. You know what our expectations are. Why would you do it this way? You know what the standards are, like I told you the day one, and I keep reiterating it every single day. You’re so much better than that. It’s a little bit of mix of scolding but reaffirming your love for them. I’m on you. I’m talking to you this way because I know you can do better. I know you can, so don’t tell me that I don’t believe in you, because I’m showing it right now. It may not be the way you want it, but that’s the way it’s going to be given to you, because this is the way I think I can get the most out of you, and I’m real open about that. And to Constanza’s point, that’s why I was laughing, because my coaches, whenever they were like this, I was at my best; when they just kind of walked through and didn’t say anything, I didn’t care at all if I messed up, because he was a jerk. So I was fine with it.

John: That reminds me a little bit of the concept of wise feedback that’s been developed by David Yaeger and others, which is, let students know that you’re giving them feedback because you believe that they’re capable of more. In several randomized, controlled studies, it’s been shown that that increases student effort substantially.

Christian: Yeah. And to be honest with you, I was giving them feedback during the class, but I wasn’t when I was grading them, and I remember Costanza saying, “You got to give them feedback.” In my head, I’m like, “Oh, geez, there’s so many kids, like, I’m going to be writing like, a long, two page paper for each kid.” And I really appreciated that, because she was right. I felt so ashamed that I was not giving the feedback that I should have been giving them, because, to your point, it’s important for them to hear what they did wrong, what they continue to work on, and how I know they can do it. I’ve changed since the first day. I think you’re like, “You’re not giving them feedback?” I was like, “Well, I am. I’m just not giving probably enough.”

Constanza: And I think, too, we talk in higher ed a lot about the phrase “compassionate challenge.” And so Christian is able to have difficult conversations with students, or what others might perceive as difficult conversations with students, because he shows them how much he cares. And so when he says things like “Hey, like what happened here?” from someone else who doesn’t have that connection established with their student, that might be the most intimidating question ever. Christian also will say to them, like, “Hey, this is going to be challenging.” What he didn’t tell you is he brought a group of students out to radio row to cover the Super Bowl. And I’m sure he said to them, “This is going to be challenging. You’re going to have to meet people that you’ve never spoken to before.” We know for students that just speaking up in general, in today’s age, in a classroom with an instructor that they’ve gotten to know over the course of this semester can be intimidating. And I was so impressed by the work that the students were putting out and the little clips that I saw on Instagram, in the coverage that I was seeing. And that’s really a moment where, as an educational developer, you take a step back and you’re like, “Wow, this is public evidence of someone who has taken teaching, who has taken coaching… literally taken students out of their element into a brand new experience. And look at them thriving. Look at them doing the thing that, in the classroom maybe was talked about as theoretical. Look at them applying it.” And so I’ve been just really proud to watch Christian’s evolution in terms of the way that he coaches his students and teaches them too.

Rebecca: I’m curious, at what level, both in faculty developer working with a faculty member and also a faculty member working with a student, how much work there is, maybe, to overcome impostor phenomenon. So moving into a new space, a new discipline, even if the subject matter is familiar, how that can kind of play into [LAUGHTER] like either desperately wanting feedback or also some fear, and how students can be the same, maybe in a class with someone famous [LAUGHTER] might be really intimidating, and how to kind of work through some of those kinds of challenges students and faculty face?

Constanza: Yeah, I think first, to go back to what I said earlier, you have to develop a connection with the faculty member that you’re working with as well. In my experience, that is the only way that you can be successful in terms of educational development, because you can give a ton of advice, but if the faculty member doesn’t know that you mean what you say and that you care, and if they don’t know who you are as a human, it doesn’t matter. And so folks might come in and they might be skeptical of you. They might be skeptical of the theories or the teaching center or the work, and then you have to demonstrate to them in a way that isn’t condescending, that’s inviting, “here’s my subject matter expertise.” We forget sometimes that educational developers have that too. We have a whole lot of subject matter expertise, and my colleague, Michelle Munoz in our teaching center is always talking about that, which I love. It’s a good reminder for me too. So before we get into any of that, first we have to sort of human to human talk, and then we can get into coaching. And then we can say, “All right, what’s your plan? Let’s talk about it.” And if it doesn’t go according to plan, I love reminding faculty, the only person who had the playbook was you. So, if you didn’t cover all five things that you wanted to cover, the only person to know that necessarily is you. But also, that is what we need to remind faculty. And also it can be a positive thing. Maybe students got so fascinated about a particular area that you were talking about, you had all of this conversation that time flew by and you didn’t cover everything. Faculty in today’s world are so worried, at least in the work that I do, about covering all of the material. We had a huge snowstorm, and then a blizzard in Rhode Island. And so we had multiple days this semester that either school was canceled or we went remote. And so there was a lot of nervous energy there about, “oh no, I had planned for X many course sessions. The classic snow day happened, and now I have to figure out how to compensate.” And so working with faculty on saying, like, “Hey, it isn’t about covering all the content necessarily. It’s the quality.” And let’s rethink and reframe what that looks like, not just for this week, but for the semester. Because, again, the semester long playbook is yours, and you are the subject matter expert. You determine what students really, really need to know in order to have meaning come out of this class, let’s work together on it. So that’s how I think I would respond to that question.

Christian: Listen, from a teaching standpoint, for me, is: “absolutely what am I doing here? I don’t belong. I don’t know anybody all that stuff. I don’t have a master’s degree, but I know I know what I’m talking about because I’m an expert in my field. I just don’t have a degree for it.” Nobody has been like, “Here’s a trophy. I don’t have a Marconi. I have 20 years in the business,” but, yeah, to me, that’s a Costanza thing. It’s almost like, you are good enough, you are smart enough. You know, it’s one of those things. [LAUGHTER] I’m like, “Yeah, let’s go. There’s no brick wall to run through, there’s just a door, so I have to consume my energy.” So that was real. I’m not gonna lie. Admitting that is hard to do because, like, I just didn’t really feel like I belonged at first, and it took some time and some coaching to feel comfortable in my own skin, for a bunch of like, 19 to 20 year olds.

Rebecca: They’re tough crowd.

Christian: They are a tough crowd. I look at them sometimes and I’m like, they don’t give a crap what I’m saying right now. And I leave there depressed, and I feel like I didn’t do a good job. That’s the worst feeling, to be honest with you, is leaving the classroom going, “Oh man, that sucked. I could have done so much better than that.” But I will say this, I know I’m kind of changing the direction, but even when that happens, I’ll have some students that’ll come up to me, and I swear up and down, this kid was not paying attention, could care less, was not engaged at all. When those guys come up to me, or those girls come up to me and they say, “This is the best class I’ve ever had.” I’m like, “Really? You didn’t say one word.” [LAUGHTER] You didn’t say anything. You acted like I had a big hole in my head. And that, to me, is very rewarding.

Constanza: Yeah, and I think to go back to the point about impostor syndrome, we all feel it. So sharing it… I started teaching in the college space when I was 23 and so like Christian, I tell faculty this, like Christian, I was like, “No, I’m supposed to be on the other side of the desk, I’m just supposed to be learning. I’m not supposed to be teaching. And the first day I taught, the technology didn’t work. I couldn’t get my roster. It was, in all senses, a disaster. And I remember going home and called my dad, and I was like, “Dad, I don’t know how you do this teaching thing. You have to get up in front of people, and they’re staring at you, and everyone depends on you,” and that’s a lot like you said, Rebecca, it’s a tough crowd, and I think too, we’re navigating again like a rupture in higher education, like I mentioned earlier, that Jessica Riddell talks about. And so it’s showing faculty different skills and strategies to reconnect with their audiences in different ways, and they’re learning how to do that. And beginner learning experiences when you’re doing something in a different way can be daunting. And so it’s everything that Christian said. It’s connecting on stories of, okay, well, this didn’t go the way that I expected in the classroom, knowing you’re not alone. I mean, if we could tell tales from the teaching center, which we can talk about things in broad terms, but we’re a non-evaluative, confidential space, but if we had tales from the teaching center, I think a lot of people would say, “Oh, I didn’t realize that so many people were going through the same thing that I was going through. And that’s what we hear on a daily basis in the teaching center. So when folks come to me and say, “I didn’t feel great in that class,” or “the students seem really tired this week,” I can be like, “yeah, there’s a lot going on this week, from what we’ve heard,” and I can reaffirm that for them, but I can also talk to them about my silly moments too, and I’ll also say what I love. My sister is a daycare teacher, and she talks, and she’s like, sometimes things don’t go according to plan in daycare and I’m like, “What do you do?” Like, talk to me about what that looks like, because I only know how to work with adults. I don’t know how to work with toddlers. And she’s like, sometimes we just have to redirect and shake the sillies out. And she, quite literally, will have the students just like, shake it out. And I feel like we need to just shake it out in higher education too.

Christian: I’m doing that. [LAUGHTER]I’m so doing that.

Constanza: Isn’t that adorable. They shake the sillies… [LAUGHTER]

Christian: I bet you, they can probably laugh about it. It probably completely brings them back to their childhood, and it does kind of reset during that time. I’m literally going to do that.

Constanza: I love that, and I will say too, when students get up to present in front of the class, I think that’s probably when they have the most empathy for us, because they realize, “oh, I have to be the focus of attention, and I have to be the content expert right now, and I also need to be not robotic, but engaging.” And those moments, I think, can be helpful in reestablishing connection, not that I think you should just assign students a presentation for no reason. I think that would be very anxiety inducing [LAUGHTER] for most students today. But I think talking about how it might be really daunting for us to be up in front of the class, or letting students know, like, “Hey, I didn’t sleep really well last night. So if I say something and it doesn’t fully make sense, please ask a question,” or just reminding students that we get paid to answer questions, I love saying to faculty, “They actually pay me to answer your questions,” because they’ll be like, “I don’t want to bother you. I know you’re so busy, you’ve got so much going on, I don’t want to take up all your time,” unless you’re Christian. He just said he loves to hijack my time, but like, I get paid to answer questions, come ask questions. We love that in the teaching center, and I know that faculty love it too, because to Christian’s point when someone comes up and asks a question or says, “Wow, that was a really cool lesson.” Oh my gosh, like my heart swells. And I wrote a piece for Inside Higher Ed a while back about keeping a jar of those types of comments, because teaching evaluations, especially, we hold on to that one comment that is slightly negative or totally negative, and we don’t see all the other comments that are like, “this was really eye opening and inspirational,” and “this instructor really cared.” No, we just focus on that one. I think we need to talk about our wins. And if I may, one other thing that I’ll say, I had my husband do this just yesterday, so it’s not just in the educational development space. He works in property management, and he had a woman come in yesterday and her internet was disconnected, and he was like, “I will come stop by during lunch and I’ll help you out.” And she wrote him back and she said, “You made me feel connected to the world again by helping me out.” And I was like, “Michael, you better frame this. I’m not kidding. Like this is the best piece of feedback that you’ve gotten,” because usually folks come to him and they’re like, “I’ve got a problem in my living space,” and it’s really stressful. And he did. He did because he knows I talk about it all the time. I’m like, celebrate your wins, put them as a reminder, so when you have a bad day, you can go back and look at it and be like, “Oh, okay, this is why I matter. This is why I’m here.” We all need that.

John: I’m going to put in a plug for another podcast that came out in the middle of March, about a month or so ago on impostor phenomenon by Sara Kien. We had a really good discussion of that, so I’d encourage people to go back and listen to that if they’d like to learn more about it. In earlier conversations, you both mentioned how surprised you were about the strong similarities between the ways in which skills are developed in sports and the way in which skills are developed in the classroom. How has the experience of sports perhaps informed the way in which you work with students to develop their skills?

Christian: So I would say I have 14 classes with them total in a semester, it’s a lecture class, and there’s not a chance in hell, in 14 classes, I will have them camera ready at a high level to be ready to perform. So what I do is, to develop those skills, we practice it, every day when we get in, we practice certain skills and we practice them again. And part of that would be my game plan. For a game every Monday, when I would come into the facility, my coach would hand me a game plan. Here’s your game plan. Here’s what we’re going to do. Before we even practice, we would do the basic stuff, chopsticks, you know what I mean? Like just to warm up. And the funny thing is, what I’m realizing now is like, I keep telling them, “You guys don’t even understand what I’m doing right now. You’ll understand it in about two months,” because I make them do it over and over and over and over and over again. I said it’ll make sense in the end, and that’s kind of the way I look at it. I think specifically for broadcasting, there needs to be repetition. There needs to be a massive amount of repetition. And there’s a technical side to broadcasting. There’s a physical side to broadcasting, and there’s an emotional side. The first two, I can teach that all day long, easy, like we’ll hammer it home. The emotional side is the more difficult avenue that I’ve seen, getting them comfortable in their own skin. So to that, how do I develop that skill, which is the hardest one to develop, especially for someone who’s not comfortable being in front of people, who’s not comfortable speaking? I’ve created certain… I’ll just call them competitions, either solo or as a group… I’ll divide them into left side versus right side, and constantly putting them in those situations that make sense when they do their final, and then when their final comes around, listen and I tell them, “You’ve done this. We’ve done that. We’ve done this again. We did it over and over again. You guys are ready. The skills are there. The information is there. Now let’s put it into practice.” Constanza was actually… and I hijacked her for one of my classes, for one of the presentations, because I created our own version of Shark Tank, and she was one of the judges. And she was supposed to be real critical and challenge them. I want them to be challenged. And there was two other professors that helped out. So that’s what I would say, developing those skill sets. As far as the stuff that I teach is just constantly, constantly repping it. It has to be wrapped, and it has to be rep in the sports world, with different situations, different scenarios, different games, different endings, different circumstances, tough. “Hey, can I really say this?” “Well, no, but say it this way,” making them a goal again, but then at the same time, making sure that that person knows, because we’re talking about insecurities now, people judging me, making fun of me, like even though they’re probably not, that everybody else in the class needs to know. This is a workshop. This is a dojo, like we’re practicing here. This is not the final event. This is not our Olympic 100 meter relay. Like, this is the dojo. We’re in the dojo now, and this is where you’re allowed to make mistakes. So that’s kind of the approach that I take.

Constanza: Yeah, I think similarly, when I teach Spanish language classes, I say, “look, first, in order to learn, you have to be here, right?” And I explained to my students why it matters, and I get to know them on a personal level, so that if someone isn’t here, you’ll hear my students say, “Yeah, I had to take a picture of an empty chair and text it to my friend Bobby, because they weren’t in class today,” because I’ll say “We missed you. You’re not here.” Like, “hope you’re doing okay. Check in.” I like to let them know. First and foremost, I notice if they’re not there. Second, this goes along with faculty too. Like, if I haven’t seen one of my faculty in a while, I’ll email them and say, “Oh my goodness, we haven’t connected. How are you? What’s going on? What are you teaching this week?” Because I want them to know I’m thinking about them, even if we don’t cross paths in the hallway. In educational development, similarly, if we’re not practicing our teaching skills or staying informed about what different and new pedagogies are, or different approaches, then it becomes really hard to pivot if we need to. And gosh, if COVID taught us anything, it’s that we need to be ready to pivot if something happens. And the blizzard showed us that as well, we suddenly went for a couple of days to remote learning. So we need to know how to be adaptable in a way that our students are able to absorb it. We need to be able to do that for educational development too. So we’ll do things in the teaching center like have one-on-one consults, and we’ll ask for follow ups from faculty if they want to. We hope that they do. And we’ll also not just do one off workshops, but we’ll do a workshop series, because I think you all can relate to the idea that sometimes you go to a workshop, you have tons of great ideas, but there isn’t follow up. And so that repetition that Christian’s talking about, we have a series of events, like a book group or a four-series workshop. Then folks have time to reflect upon what they’ve learned, think about implementation, and come back with questions, checking in with folks to say, “how was the pace of this session,” or “we talked about this approach you were going to take in the classroom, how did it go?” And actually showing that we care as educational developers in a way that is coaching, but also just again, genuine, is so important as well, because sometimes faculty might have tried something and it didn’t go the way that they planned, and they might be embarrassed or shy to come and talk to us and say “this didn’t work out.” So normalizing that as part of the process, and then to feedback like we talked about earlier, letting folks know, “Hey, you’re not the only one who’s experiencing disengagement. This week, we’ve seen an uptick in that” or “Yeah, like there does seem to be a lot of absences the day before spring break. It’s not just your class,” letting them know that it might feel personal, right? Because you’re saying, “oh my gosh, why did three students not show up to my class? I had a really great topic prepared.” “It’s not just you. There’s a trend that we’re seeing here.” I think that is really helpful.

John: One of the things you mentioned a couple of times was the importance of letting faculty know that they’re not alone. And as you said, reading groups or a series of workshops where faculty get to work together repeatedly, allows those things to naturally come out, and it’s so reassuring for faculty when they feel that they’re not the only ones experiencing those challenges.

Constanza: Yeah, and I think that is one of the beautiful things that we do in the teaching center that isn’t necessarily labeled as a service that we offer, but maybe it should be, and maybe that’s a way that we need to reframe the types of consults that we do. Maybe it’s a belonging consult, but everyone is different, right? So for me, I’m just like, “Oh, I’m meeting with Christian today, and we’ll see what we talk about.” And I genuinely get to know him as a human. I get to know what he teaches about. I get to say, “Huh, I have no idea about this. Can you teach me?” But yeah, I do think that one of the unspoken and unwritten rules in educational development is helping faculty engage with their students but also find their niche in the campus and sort of connecting the dots between what’s available for them and what can help enhance their teaching. So when we talk about coaching on the field and we talk about performance, we want athletes to be better, to feel more motivated, to have that drive and energy. We want the same thing for our instructors, too, but we also want them to know that not every single day goes perfectly. Just because we’re subject matter experts doesn’t mean that we have all the answers. And I think when we talk about that feeling of being alone on campus, that also means, if a student is going through something, and you’re a faculty member and you care about… I tell my faculty all the time, we have a lot of student-facing resources on campus. That is when you refer, like you’ve got something going on with a student and they need support that is outside of the scope of being an instructor in the room. That’s why we have care report, so that you can get that student the support that they need. And for faculty, we’re often the only faculty facing office on campus. So letting faculty know, “Oh, by the way, you’ve got somebody here. You’ve got a team here that is here just for you, so that if you’re navigating, let’s say, classroom management, we’re here to consult with you, to talk about what are some ways that you can navigate this. What are some approaches that you can take that are different than perhaps the ones that you’ve been taking?” So yeah, it’s really important not to feel alone, especially in teaching. It’s such a relational field.

Rebecca: One thing that I heard come out in the conversation today is maybe a need for this practice and repetition for fluency, but with variety. And I think repetition kind of implies, by its nature, that it could get boring really quick. So how do you, as a coach, bring in that variety so that it stays engaging?

Christian: Well, I think you just said it. Sports is all about repetition, shooting the same free throw 100 times, blocking the same way over and believe me, it gets boring, and you’re hoping that your coach can get creative. So we’ll just change the drill, and you feel like it’s new, but it’s technically the same thing. It just looks different, but the coach is still getting the same outcome that he wants, but now he’s got you reengaged, and you’re not bitching and complaining about being in the same old thing in week 10. I think that’s the same thing for teaching. It is, how could I create the same lesson plan or try to get the same thing across and they think that it’s actually different? And I try to do that as much as possible. Either I change the topic, I change the theme of it, because, you know, I get bored too. [LAUGHTER] I get bored. So, like, Man, [snap fingers] [LAUGHTER] I gotta snap out of this. Let’s kind of change where everybody sits. I don’t know, like, just do something different. That’s about as simple as I can get with that. Like, I think it’s the repetition is key, and you can’t get rid of it. You can’t ignore it. But I do think creating a different lesson plan that still has the same teeth as how it was originally set up to be, I think is important also.

Constanza: Yeah, and I think the same type of coaching practice happens in educational development too. Number one, not every single strategy or approach or recommendation, I make… Christian will laugh when I say this, but in our first weeks of mentorship, I was like, “Look, you don’t have to listen to me.” And he’s like, “But Constanza, I’m here. I want to listen to you.” And he’d always say that over and over again. And I was like, “Well, no Christian. What I mean by that is, I’m going to give you a variety of options. You choose what feels right for you, for your teaching style, for your teaching approach.” So we have to offer variety, because folks may or may not be comfortable with one solution that we give. We might need to give them a variety so that they say, “Oh, this one feels like it fits for me or for my context,” because, again, as I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, I often am not very familiar with the subject matter that the faculty member is coming in with. So I’m there to talk about the teaching strategies. Number two, there are so many books on educational development, they keep coming out. Why? Because our students and our faculty are changing in terms of their expectations, what they need. So we need to adapt, and there will always be books on educational development, because we’re still learning more about how we learn, and again, the people who are in front of us change. So I think, on that note, too, we need to constantly be offering variety. If I only offered the same three workshops every single year, I would not have attendance, because faculty will say, “Well, I’ve seen that. That’s old. Teach me something new.” So if we want to engage faculty, then we need to give them new approaches. Or if we’re talking about student engagement, which is something that we’ve always been talking about, we need to talk about different ways that they can approach that. So to Christian’s point, yes, it’s the same topic, but it’s a different way of explaining it, or it’s a different idea, or it’s having faculty perhaps present themselves and say, “This has really worked well for me in the classroom. Let me show you how I do it.” We have one instructor who, he came in last summer, and he said, “Constanza, I’m going to upend my class, and I want to talk to you about it.” And I said, “All right, tell me more.” And so he decided to use flipped learning for all of his classes. He started with one, and now this semester, he’s using it for all of them in a really different and unique way. And then he delivered a presentation about it a few weeks ago to talk about the implications of that in the age of AI, which is not how we would have talked about flipped learning even five years ago. So we all need a refresh on our teaching. And the other thing I’ll add to what Christian said is, if you don’t, it gets boring for you too. I know even teaching three sections of the same course back to back, by the third section, I’m like, “Okay, did I say this in this section, or did I say it in the section before?” We need to spice it up for ourselves so that we can have the passion to then share with our students. It’s so important.

John: We always end with the question: “what’s next?”

Christian: Is world domination too aggressive? [LAUGHTER]

John: It seems to be really popular right now.

Christian: Oh, that’s true. [LAUGHTER] True. World domination in the teaching profession, that is what’s next for us. I’m going to speak for Constanza as well, because we feel like we have a really good message, and I think we have a real unique way of sharing and explaining that message. And so what’s next for us, from a partnership, is trying to find unique and creative ways to share what we have learned. And that’s the easiest way I could express it. Constanza, you do the academic version and clean it up for me.

Constanza: I think just to add to what Christian has said, I really, really enjoy working with Christian. It’s not every single day that you get to go home and say, “Yeah, today I work with an NFL two time Super Bowl champion,” and remember, I know nothing about football. So it’s really cool how we came from such different spaces, and yet found so many parallels in the work that we do. I really appreciate the openness that Christian has. It takes a lot of courage to be vulnerable in teaching. We know this, and to talk so openly about “Here’s what I’ve learned in my last year or so of teaching.” And I’m really excited, because I think, to Christian’s point, we’ll be able to help a lot of other instructors just by talking about the work that we’re doing. So I’m really excited that Christian has agreed to work with me in this way, and we’re just so grateful for being able to be here with you both today to talk a little bit about what we’re doing.

John: Well, thank you. It’s been great talking to both of you, and to meet you, Christian and to talk to you again, Constanza, and the message that you have about working together to improve teaching is one, as the director of a teaching center, I’d like to see a whole lot more of because we can all learn from each other and sharing our ideas in a world in which things are evolving so rapidly in higher ed, can be really helpful rather than trying to deal with everything alone.

Rebecca: Finding ways to reframe, using coaching and other frames can be really helpful to spice things up and provide that variety, even if the underlying techniques and things are really the same.

Christian: This last thing, and we’ll cap it, when I talk to coaches, coaches in the NFL and college, when I talk to them about their philosophy on coaching, they all end up saying, you know, we’re just teachers. They say the same thing that we’re saying I’m saying, “Oh…” they go, “No, we’re just teachers,” and they just use a different word for it.

Rebecca: Well, thank you so much for joining us, and we look forward to sharing this with our audience,

Christian: Yeah, can’t wait to hear it. Appreciate you guys having us on.

Constanza: Thank you both.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing Assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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440. Program-Level AI Responses

When generative AI platforms first appeared on the scene, faculty had to address these challenges alone. In this episode, Kathleen Landy joins us to discuss how program-level collaboration can help educators adapt more rapidly and effectively.

Kathleen is the Provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs at Genesee Community College. Prior to this, Kathleen has served in leadership roles at teaching centers at Cornell University, Queensborough Community College, and Mercy College. She has taught in multiple modalities and also has extensive K-12 teaching experience. Kathleen also served on the POD Network Core Committee from 2022 through 2025, and currently serves as the Co-Chair of the SUNY Council on Assessment.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: When generative AI platforms first appeared on the scene, faculty had to address these challenges alone. In this episode, we discuss how program-level collaboration can help educators adapt more rapidly and effectively.

[MUSIC]

John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Kathleen Landy. She is the Provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs at Genesee Community College. Prior to this, Kathleen has served in leadership roles at teaching centers at Cornell University, Queensborough Community College, and Mercy College. She has taught in multiple modalities and also has extensive K-12 teaching experience. Kathleen also served on the POD Network Core Committee from 2022 through 2025, and currently serves as the Co-Chair of the SUNY Council on Assessment. Welcome Kathleen!

Kathleen: Thank you so much! I am delighted to be joining you today.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are… Kathleen, are you drinking tea with us today?

Kathleen: I certainly am. I’ve got a nice mug here from the Ithaca Coffee Company, and it is filled with Irish Breakfast tea because it’s March and it’s approaching St Patrick’s Day. So why not lead with that?

Rebecca: I think you’re on theme. You’re good.

Kathleen: I’m trying. Yeah, thank you.

Rebecca: How about you, John?

John: And I forgot that we’re approaching St Patrick’s Day, so I have English breakfast tea, which might not go as well with Ireland in the same way.

Rebecca: Immediate conflict, [LAUGHTER] there’s immediate conflict.

Kathleen: I didn’t expect this so soon in the podcast, [LAUGHTER] the acrimony. Oh my.

Rebecca:I have a blue sapphire again, John, but it’s in my new favorite mug that I got while I was in Switzerland.

John: Excellent. We’ve invited you here today to discuss your February 28th 2024 article in Inside Higher Ed that addressed institutional responses to generative AI platforms. We recently ran across the article and thought these arguments were just as appropriate today as they were two years ago when you wrote this. At that time, ChatGPT had only been available for a relatively short time, and you argued that institutional responses were generally reactive rather than proactive. Are higher ed institutions still mostly reacting to changes determined by AI providers?

Kathleen: I’d say yes and no. And I think a really important disclaimer here is that anything I say from this point on is from the perspective of a dedicated practitioner, and I’m not conducting empirical study and formal study of many institutions higher ed, right? So this is certainly based on conversations with peers and my experience and my day-to-day goings on. And so I think we are still a bit reactive and I think that also varies greatly by institution and within institutions, by school and by program. So I think it really depends. I think we’re all over the road, to be honest. That said, I think, initially, folks were dealing with this reaction, or this reactive response, in isolation and kind of left on their own to explore or to experiment, and I think that probably remains true, but perhaps more at a broader organizational scale. So I think individual departments and programs are experimenting and exploring, and so I think there’s stronger or weaker degrees of coordination of those efforts across institutions. So yes and no, I know that that’s a pretty broad answer, but I think it varies.

John: And I think that applies to most things involving AI in higher education these days.

Kathleen: That’s fair. Yes, I agree.

Rebecca: I feel like faculty really experienced a lot of transition and having to respond to a lot of different things in the last five years, which is a little tiring. This included things like the shift to remote instruction in 2020, the growth of for-profit companies like Chegg, whose business model basically encourages [LAUGHTER] academic integrity violations, and this proliferation of AI platforms beginning in late 2022, and also the upcoming deadline for digital accessibility requirements. So there’s lots of different kinds of things that faculty are having to shift and rethink around. And faculty in the SUNY system have also faced a transition in their learning management system on top of everything else during this time period. Is it really reasonable to place so much burden of addressing these systemic issues in the hands of faculty? I guess the bigger question is, what role do faculty play, and then what role do institutions and systems play?

Kathleen: It’s a great question. I think it’s a loaded question, and I’m all right with that. I think it’s a fair question. I think, no, it’s not reasonable to put all of that expectation on faculty. And I think the second part of that is, I hope it’s not the case that it is the expectation. So no circle in which I chat, or operate, or work to serve the mission of Genesee, or any place where I’ve been, it’s never been the assumption that faculty need to figure that out, they need to figure that out on their own. So, because it’s such a critical responsibility, because it’s such a mission-critical responsibility, because faculty play this critical role as stewards of teaching and learning at any institution, I think they deserve the support. So if I’m doing my job decently as a provost, I’m trying to coordinate that support. I’m trying to do what I can to encourage a couple of different things. So the day-to-day work that I do as a provost, hopefully, is mindful of three things, assessment, professional development, and, frankly, wellness. If faculty are the stewards of the teaching and learning experience on campus, I work in service of the faculty, so I’m constantly trying to think about the assessment of it all. What do we need to learn? What do the faculty need to be effective in their roles? What do the faculty need? What development do they need? What do they want to learn in order to be effective in their role? And then, of course, the wellness piece, and that’s trying to keep tabs on everything from workload to culture and departmental environments and institutional priorities and the extent to which we’re pursuing them with the spirit of shared governance and collaboration in all the things. So no, it’s not reasonable to put everything on the faculty, and if senior admin are doing our jobs correctly, we’re supporting them in that endeavor and trying to work with folks to figure out what we need to accomplish next and how we can collaboratively do that.

Rebecca: One of the things that you’re hinting at is a little bit of prioritization. When there’s a lot of things going on, everything can seem like it’s in its own bucket, and it’s equally as important, but it’s hard to put attention on everything equally. So it seems like there needs to be some sort of coordination or integration of these different kinds of initiatives: accessibility, AI, and the list goes on.

Kathleen: Yes, I think that’s where organizational structure and communication and collaboration between those and among those structures is so important. And so that gets into organizational health, and how effectively are we keeping each other informed about the things that we’re doing and the priorities that we’re setting? If we’re working in a siloed, isolating environment, it’s so counterproductive, of course, so I think the sense of institutional priority that everyone’s working with is paramount. Right behind it is the health of the working culture, the working environment. So I agree there’s an emphasis on priority there. That’s important.

John: Now you mentioned two terms there that I was just thinking about in your earlier comments. One is culture, and the other is silos. Is part of the issue, where we don’t see as much decisions made at the department or program level, the fact that we do have a culture in higher ed of faculty working in their own silos, working independently, and not agreeing on as many approaches to teaching and learning. From what I’ve seen here, most faculty are addressing the challenges of AI entirely on their own, without even discussing it that much at the departmental or the program level, in part because they’re used to developing their own courses without sharing a lot of information with others. The whole notion of academic freedom and independence is a bit of a culture in higher ed that may actually serve as a barrier to cooperative work on this topic.

Kathleen: I think that’s an incredibly sympathetic question. There is a culture of knowing things and being the authority, and I think it’s built into the fabric and the culture of higher ed in general, and because instructors, because faculty members, are masters of their discipline, they’re experts in the field, it is so wildly disconfirming to not understand the task at hand, which is, “how do I incorporate AI into my disciplinary knowledge, my instructional practice, my assessment practice, my collegial conversations with colleagues, my academic discourse with students, with colleagues, with the field?” I don’t want to get too technical, but it’s super weird. It’s hard sometimes to admit that we don’t know something. And I think, without generalizing, that’s really hard for academics. You don’t want to show that card and say, “I’m not sure how to handle this. I’m not sure what this is all about. I’m totally fearful of this thing.” In the case of faculty, it’s on multiple levels: “Is a chat bot going to do my job in five years?” It might be so disconfirming in terms of the value placed on discipline specific knowledge. “I used to be revered for my encyclopedic knowledge of x, and now it’s a 30 second prompt. So what does that mean for me?” So it’s weird. On an individual level, it can be threatening. On a professional, personal level, I would even say on a deeply personal level, in terms of how we define ourselves and ourselves of identity… I don’t mean to get too metaphysical or philosophical on this… but I think it’s really hard to make sense of this. And I think when things were first unfolding, and there were multiple platforms, ChatGPT comes immediately to mind, of course, but select platforms were rising in such prominence in 2022, 2023, folks were in isolation, which was, in fact, the impetus for this opinion piece to say, “I don’t think we have to figure this out on our own. This is a departmental endeavor. Let’s talk about the things, let’s model learning for our students and each other. Let’s figure it out together.” So yeah, I do think broadly the culture of academia can be a little isolating and individualistic, but in my lived experience, the culture of teaching is collaborative. And “hey, I’ve got a student with this challenge, or I’ve got this module or unit or facet of my course that’s a little clunky or not flowing well, or the engagement isn’t there. What do you think?” In my lived experience as a teacher, it’s always been a communicative, collaborative endeavor, where I try to get better and better and better, because I think the best teachers are lifelong learners. So there’s a humility in that that hopefully combats the resistance that’s built into the fabric of academia that sometimes takes the form of resistance to admitting that we don’t know something.

Rebecca: How do we start to move in the direction of this more proactive, scaled, systemic response to AI platforms? We’ve kind of danced around the idea that there’s these silos, not everyone’s collaborating, there is the opportunity to collaborate, teaching can be really collaborative. What needs to happen to kind of nudge it to this more proactive direction so that we can have a more systemic cultural change?

Kathleen: Well, I think the first part of your question, if I heard it correctly, is, what’s prompting this evolution, if you will, or this progress? Frankly, I think it’s because the challenge or the problem isn’t going away, it’s here. It isn’t going away, and so we kind of can’t ignore this anymore as a sector, so as more and more institutions and individuals notice this and are kind of getting our bearings in the wake of this seismic disruption, I see lots more activity within and across institutions. And I think the second part of that, if I heard it correctly, is, how do we build upon that? Is that accurate?

Rebecca: Yeah or how do we launch it forward a little faster, [LAUGHTER] or really leverage the opportunity to address it in a more systemic way?

Kathleen: I think part of it involves our metacognitive approach to this challenge and our metacognitive recognition that there’s different facets to our institutional and individual responses. So I definitely see some curricular responses, and I think this varies greatly by department. For some disciplines, it makes so much more sense to have AI-specific program level learning outcomes. It just made sense, because AI is impacting their fields, their programs in such obvious ways. That’s not true for every discipline, obviously. So there is reluctance to touch the curriculum or to revise or modify or even review the curriculum in other disciplines, and that’s okay. In other pockets of higher ed, it’s more structural. I’m seeing so many more structures, organizational structures, that are responding to this moment, to these changes. And sometimes it might take the form of an ad hoc committee, it might take the form of a Senate subcommittee, it might take a form of a… you name it. So I think there’s structural responses. Folks are starting to self organize, and I think that’s good. And I think if we’re mindful of that, and in turn, try to be planful about that and thoughtful about the structures we create in our own institutions, that’s another facet. Yet another facet involves some of the policy-related work that’s going on. Lots of institutions are drafting policies and doing so, quite rightly, collaboratively, trying to incorporate faculty perspective and working through channels of shared governance. Those are good things, I’d say, finally, another facet is the cultural piece. I see folks sharing things so much more often. Just this morning, a colleague shared an article with me from e-campus News, and it’s entitled, “The AI-resistant classroom is a myth: Designing assessments that assume AI is present,” and while I don’t know that that’s something I would offer like “this is the blueprint,” it’s thought provoking, and it’s beautiful fodder for conversation with fellow administrators and faculty and the assessment committee with whom I work closely. There’s so much out there, and I feel like folks are sharing so much more. So, I think a notable shift, and something that we can intentionally encourage, is the shift in the tenor of the conversations that we’re having with each other and that we’re prompting with colleagues, that it’s shifting so much more away from, “Oh my goodness, how we’re going to handle this? This is so worrisome, and this is something to fear” to “These are opportunities and what can we achieve? What do we need to achieve what do we want?” So, that might have been a long-winded answer, but I think it’s so multifaceted. I think taking stock of how we’re responding to this moment is an important part of continuing to respond to this moment in a productive way.

John: I may have overstated the degree to which faculty are working in silos earlier, because I know on our campus, we do have a lot of those discussions, but the discussions tend to be among those who are exploring AI as one group, and then we also have a lot of discussions among those people who just don’t want to have anything to do with AI as a different group, and they don’t always talk to each other as much as might be productive. Even within departments, I know of one department where one of our major AI advocates on campus also contains someone who is one of the most opposed to any student use of AI. And so that presents a little bit of a challenge in building some of these programmatic approaches. Do you have any suggestions on how we can bring these people together in a productive way… to at least come up with some shared principles or objectives?

Kathleen: I do, yeah. I think recognizing that there’s, as you just described, there’s such a range of responses to this. Some are logical, some are emotional, some are deeply discipline driven by discipline-specific thinking. But there is variability, and we know that. So I think the ways to bring people together… this is not an earth shattering statement, but… need to be really thoughtful. It can’t be one and done. It’s not an hour with cookies, although I do like a good cookie, let’s not have that come across the wrong way. But I think it’s frequency of meetings or just opportunities for discussion. I think it’s the structure. I think it’s the clear communication about the purpose of getting folks together. There’s a few different pieces to that. If there’s a group of folks who were super recalcitrant, they’re super resistant, I think there’s a number of different strategies to employ there, and one is modeling interesting or effective use of some of these platforms. I think it’s creating low-stakes experiences with platforms to facilitate greater exposure and to generate intellectual curiosity, to take the sting out of that isolating expectation that folks experiment on their own. I think communicating the intent, as I mentioned before, and I think most importantly, grounding these conversations and these experiences in the mission of your institution. There may be such variability among folks on a campus with regard to their perceived value of generative AI, but what they all have in common should be the mission. And so if I can frame conversations about, “Hey, what does this platform or this use or this potential use for AI have to do with your program? Have to do with the students’ experience?” That’s, I think, what connects us all, and that’s what I think should be the impetus for these conversations. What is best for the students, what is best for our viability as a program, to ensure that we’re still relevant, that we’re still accomplishing for students what we say we will. And I think that’s a good starting point. I think framing those experiences where you’re hoping to achieve consensus, I think framing them is really important. It’s a good start.

John: One of the things we did last year was we had 24 faculty participate in a SUNY IITG-funded initiative where they spend a little over a semester developing some activities that they could embed in the classes and experiment with, but the first day of that, we had people together all day, and it was really one of the most productive sessions I’ve seen, because at the start we saw this wide polarization, but then the people who were really opposed to AI got to see how it might be productive for them, and they got to see some examples from others of how it might be helpful for students who might be left behind without some additional support. And at the other extreme, the people who were really enthusiastic got to hear some of the concerns of the other people and see how it could be used in ways that are detrimental. And I think everyone left there with a much more balanced perspective at the end of that day. And then we met regularly throughout the semester, and it was really nice to see people coming together there. The challenge is getting them all in the room in the first place.

Kathleen: So that’s a great example and thank you for sharing that, and it prompts me to share this example: For that list that I just offered, in terms of trying to demonstrate effective use of select platforms, and trying to give concrete examples of how this might be beneficial, to try to model that. And so an example that might be worth sharing is that we are up for our middle states reaccreditation. In fact, our site visit is in a couple of weeks, and we’re trying to get the word out, “Read the study! Read the study!” We want folks to engage. It’s a really thoughtful self study. We’re proud of who we are. We’re mission centered. We do good work. We know what we’re working on. We’re humble, we hustle, all the things. However, I know that it’s a tough sell to get an entire campus community to read a 100-page document that is evidence rich, and perhaps to some, not the most dynamic document. It might not be the page turner we hope it is or that we think it is. However, I leveraged a platform to make summary podcasts for each chapter, and I shared these along with the self study, and we shared them broadly with the campus community, and it is truly trying to model this in the spirit of UDL. Here’s multiple means of representation. You can read this and then you can listen to this, and it’s intriguing and it’s entertaining and it’s good and it’s a decent use of a handy application. And I’m hoping that folks will listen to that podcast and think, “Oh, wow! Maybe I could do that in my sociology class. Maybe I can encourage students to create some summaries of some reading assignments, not to totally supplant them, but to supplement and to reinforce learning.” And so that’s one example that your example has prompted me to share. Yeah, I think there’s so much that we can do. Your example also speaks to the idea that it shouldn’t be one and done. It’s not an hour. We need enough time to engage with each other, with these platforms, to make sense of something before we can even speculate on how to best incorporate it into our curriculum, or not.

Rebecca: Part of what I’m hearing both of you say is, it’s important to have someone who’s watching the bigger conversation on campus and can call these meetings to happen. To use the teaching center to have a whole-day workshop, or have administration say, “Hey, we’re going to dedicate this day to having these conversations. We invite you to all come.” Someone has to take that first step to: A) recognize that the different populations exist, and then B) intentionally bring them together.

Kathleen: And I think bring them together in different ways and different modalities, dare say. I mentioned sharing resources before. At GCC, we have a week of professional development days in advance of each semester. And so I knew just by being, you know, a good SUNY citizen, and by being connected with colleagues and peers, I knew that SUNY Finger Lakes Community College has been doing some fabulous work with their AI hub, The FLX AI Hub. And so we welcomed folks from Finger Lakes Community College to our campus to help us and to give some really thoughtful overviews of some ways to integrate AI into the teaching and learning endeavor, or at least to consider what those integrations might look like. And one of the follow-up activities that full disclosure, I have not yet sent invites for, but I bought the books, and that’s something. So the wonderful Dave Ghidiu from Finger Lakes Community College had recommended to us a text that he loves, The Opposite of Cheating by Tricia Galant and David Rettinger. And frankly, I want to have a provost book club. I want to get folks together with no expectation that anyone show up with the answer to all the world’s problems. I want us to come together, read something thoughtful, listen to each other, and engage in that dialog that you described, John, that some folks, they have really valid concerns that everyone needs to hear and we all need to respond to. And others have done trailblazing, innovative work that everyone should hear and we should all try to emulate and so there’s such a discourse, which I think accomplishes a few things. It helps everyone improve our instructional and assessment practice. And I know this might be cheesy, but I’m a cheesy person, it stokes that fire of intellectual curiosity that drives us. We went into these fields, into this endeavor, into academia, because of that curiosity. What a moment to be in academia. Of course, it’s daunting. Of course, it sometimes feels laborious, perhaps, but we’re not alone, and we get to figure things out together and I think that really is a gift.

John: And I want to include a couple of shout outs, one to Dave Ghidiu, who has been on the podcast in the past, and also to the authors of The Opposite of Cheating. We’ll include links to the podcast with both Dave and with the authors of The Opposite of Cheating in the show notes for this episode. And also, we did a reading group on our campus last semester, and we’ve even had a member of your campus participate in the reading group, a member of your math department who was a really active and enthusiastic participant in that reading group in the fall semester of this year. We’ve been running generally one or two reading groups a semester for faculty for the last eight or nine years now, and they’ve been really productive. And we’ve done them in conjunction with other campuses. For about six years, we were doing them with SUNY Plattsburgh when Jessamyn Neuhaus was there. That broke down after she left and moved to Syracuse, although we did read her book after her move to Syracuse. They’ve been really productive ways of bringing people together and sharing their teaching practices and building this sort of community. We just wish we had more people in them.

Kathleen: It’s how things grow, and I think it’s so multifaceted. I mentioned our accreditation process. I’ve partnered with Deborah Ortloff, also at Finger Lakes Community College, to really explore and learn from her ways in which generative AI can help in the accreditation process. There’s so much that we can benefit from, and it’s really eye opening, and I think that initial exposure is really important, and then that low-stakes period of experimentation and just making sense of things with people and not doing that in isolation, great things can happen. And I’m not trying to sound like Pollyanna, I’m not trying to sound like there aren’t some daunting pieces to this, but we have great colleagues to figure things out with. That’s a joy. So why not embrace that?

John: I wish we had access to NotebookLM when we last did our accreditation, so that we could generate those podcasts, because when we did ours a few years earlier, I had to do some podcast recordings with some of the people leading that and then edit them all and post them to provide the same multimodal experience. But if those documents could have just been uploaded and generated and shared, it would have saved me many, many hours of work. But again, having those audio versions is really good, because we know multimodal presentation helps with learning for faculty as well as for students.

Kathleen: That’s right and dare say, it’s fun. It’s intriguing. I was delighted to hear those because I was just in awe that, within minutes, this was generated, and it was entertaining. I have to say it was great.

Rebecca: One of the things that we’ve hinted at but haven’t directly talked about is perhaps the need for policies to be developed related to AI. Some of this might happen at the institutional level, and some maybe at the programmatic level, or course level. Can you talk a little bit about how you see what kinds of policies should be developed at what level? What kinds of things should be in, like an institutional policy, and what might be more at a programmatic level?

Kathleen: So at the institution level, and I hope this doesn’t sound in any way like evasive, or, dare say, even cheeky, but I think a really good institutional policy is to have a course level policy. I think there’s a danger, as we all know, of the potential for institution- level policies to become overly prescriptive and curtail academic freedom. That’s to be avoided, obviously, but I think having clear expectations that departments, programs, individual courses, establish and communicate clear expectations for the students in those courses and programs. I think that’s essential, because not having a policy renders everybody guessing, and then the rules aren’t clear, and then the expectations aren’t clear, and most importantly, the learning isn’t clear, because part of the, and this is a segue to the course level consideration, for course-level considerations, or even assignment level for that matter. Generally, folks will fall into one of three policies, either we allow AI, we allow selective or limited use of AI, or we don’t allow it. Each of those is fine. I think it’s reasonable for a department to get together and discuss, “what is our department-level policy?” From my perspective, it’s perfectly reasonable to say every instructor of every course within this program needs to have a clear policy and communicate the rationale for that policy to students, because if students understand the rationale behind a policy, if they understand the policy, they’re more likely to follow it and to adhere to that policy and to be guided by that policy. So, I think at the institution level, expectations that are specific yet flexible are prudent, with the caveat being that they shouldn’t be overly prescriptive. At the department level, I think clear expectations that provide adequate guidance to faculty with regard to what they need to include in their syllabus or their course descriptions or their assignment directions, it has to be adequately specific yet flexible. Same principle there.

John: One of the challenges that students face is that they may end up with very different requirements, and at least putting it in the syllabus and describing and having a conversation with students is a start. But you also mentioned that, perhaps, whenever faculty give assignments, they should list those things, because students don’t always go back to the syllabus, and it could be confusing when you’re faced with five different policies in five different courses, or even in a course… AI may be allowed for some types of assignments, but not others. And that’s a lot for students to keep track of unless it’s being made explicit at each stage. So should faculty also include whether AI is used, not allowed, or is used in a specific manner, in every assignment where there may be a potential for use?

Kathleen: I don’t see a downside to that. So a lot of things go back to the mission and what’s best for students. If learning is the goal, then everything we can do to facilitate that learning is worth pursuing. So, with sympathy, if a student is taking five different courses with five different course-level AI policies, why wouldn’t we communicate this clearly and frequently to students? I think there are things that departments, or dare say, even institutions, can do. I don’t think we’re quite there yet, but I think there are things that we can do, such as having a template, let’s say, for course-level policies or sample statements, so that there’s a consistency with what students encounter, even if there’s variability in the degree of use that’s permitted across courses. Hopefully, if things look similar, if things are consistent in how they’re communicated and how frequently, I think that helps. I also think it is up to individual instructors to determine what’s best for their course, and I do think it’s a skill set that students need to develop, to literally or metaphorically read the room and to adapt, because that goes for us too, as professionals, as teachers, we have to learn when it’s appropriate to use or not to use or to use in a limited way, AI. So there’s also the metacognitive skill of helping students practice paying attention to the rules as they navigate their programmatic experience, so it’s layered and it’s nuanced. But to answer your question, I think there’s potential for things to get pretty confusing for students who are taking multiple courses with varying policies on AI, but we have to help them keep track of that and reminders help, presenting expectations in multiple places helps. It’s not enough to say it once in class and expect that everyone retain that forever. We have to document it. We have to share it. We have to communicate it multiple ways.

Rebecca: Your description of templates is making me think about Creative Commons licenses and the human readable versions of those licenses, where you can kind of mix and match permissions [LAUGHTER] or levels of what’s allowed or not allowed, and I could imagine some AI policies following a similar format. “You can use AI as long as you provide documentation that you used it,” or like whatever the rule might be, but I could imagine something like that being really useful for students to keep it at that human readable clear way.

Kathleen: And I would never use the word “Mad Lib”, but it’s kind of, you know, “for this course, it is my expectation that generative AI is used to: fill in the blank.And this is why.” I mean, we might want a more sophisticated term than “Mad Lib”, but template works, I think, if students know where to find this information. We’re actually doing this now at Genesee. So I meet routinely with one of our student government association officers, and he and I are collaboratively working on a draft of guidelines for conversations about breaches in academic integrity that involve AI, how to handle it. And so our hope is to, hopefully in the next three weeks,… well let’s say four weeks, hopefully in April… to gather a group of faculty and students so that we can learn from each other and refine these guidelines and socialize… I don’t love that verb… but socialize these guidelines. We’ve been engaging with folks from our Academic Senate Committee on academic integrity, our standards committee, and so we’re collaboratively trying to create a resource that will help folks engage in conversations. What to do if you suspect a student has used AI when they shouldn’t have? What should students ask at the beginning of a class of a faculty member if they’re not sure what the rules are? And so having this resource and the associated conversations that will hopefully be empowering for both faculty and students, that’s part of the cultural piece, it’s part of the resources piece, it’s part of the sharing piece. It’s all these facets of how we can make the student experience more enriching and more in line with what we’re hoping to accomplish. It was a bit of a tangent, but I think the idea of bringing more folks in to consider how to mitigate the confusion that students might experience. That’s a good thing, including the students, especially the students.

Rebecca: One of the biggest challenges associated with generative AI use in the classroom, or with student use of it, is the reliability of online assessments. And really, this is for courses, really in any modality, because we all use online assessments for things. What approaches should faculty and institutions take to ensure that faculty and students are able to reliably assess the progress of student learning?

Kathleen: It’s an excellent question, and it’s one that has prompted so much conversation on my own campus, I know on other campuses. I have a few responses to this. One, what comes to mind immediately is the prominence of tech responses to this challenge. So whether it’s proctoring and anti-cheating tech platforms, I think they have their place. It depends on the day. I have some mixed opinions on the ultimate efficacy and effectiveness of one upping, I think. Sometimes I’ve heard the term “arms race” used, and I don’t love that for a couple of reasons, but I can see how if there’s platform A, platform A-Prime comes out three months later, and then it’s a race sometimes. So I think there could probably be, and likely is its own podcast to address some of the tech platforms and the responses to that, but if I may focus on what also comes to mind… For me, surprisingly, I think there’s a personal approach to mitigating the likelihood of cheating. That comes down to relationships and communication. So I think those are at the heart of my philosophy, philosophy of teaching, philosophy of assessment. Whether there’s a tech intervention or a tech solution or no tech solution. I want students to appreciate why they shouldn’t cheat in my class, and if I’ve done my job well, if I’ve communicated that well, I want students to second guess that decision. I want students to be less willing to cheat because I have already done a good job of communicating why this learning is essential and why they shouldn’t circumvent the learning by cutting a corner or by using an AI-generated form of assistance when they shouldn’t. The other piece of that is the relationship. I want my students, and sometimes, I grant you, this is really tough in a larger lecture, I get it. So class size is a factor here, but I want my students to feel the faith that I have in them. I want them to not want to cheat [LAUGHTER] in my class, and I’m not trying, once again, to sound like Pollyanna or that I’m the eternal optimist here, but I know students cheat. I know there will always be a few who try to cheat, but I want my relationship with the class to be an impediment to that instinct. [LAUGHTER] I want folks to second guess like, “Wow, Kathleen has such faith in me and I don’t want to compromise that.” I want the relationship to be its own disincentive. And I want the communication of, “Hey, this is why I’m asking you not to cheat on this.” Can you cheat? Probably. Sure. But should you? No, of course not, and here’s why. So I think there’s a surprisingly personal part of my own teaching philosophy that informs this part of that answer. I also think there’s a real place for authentic assessment, and of course, modality may play a factor here, but to the extent to which learning is applied, authentic, that can mitigate the likelihood that students would outsource it to an AI platform. The same goes for metacognition and the assessment thereof. If I have an assessment or an assignment that takes a look at process over product, or if I have something that takes a look at students’ own metacognitive reflections on how they did, it calls for more self assessment, calls for more personal reflection. I think that also mitigates. It could be a whole ‘nother podcast to get into. I’m not going to outsource to a platform an articulation of how I feel about how [LAUGHTER] the process went. So I think there’s the communication piece, the assignment design piece, and the potential for a tech solution as well. I think those three things are relevant and connected to my pretty long answer to that question. I think it’s multifaceted.

John: And those are all great solutions. One of the things, though, that many people are increasingly concerned with is the growing availability of agentic platforms that can log into a course management system, check to see what work is due, complete that work and log out without any intervention other than the student giving it the URL, the login ID, and the password. And at the other extreme, there’s also concern that faculty could do the same thing. That these same platforms could allow faculty to set up an agent that would go in, check within the learning management system to see if there’s work to be graded, grade that work, provide notes in the feedback column in addition to a letter grade, and then log out again without any intervention from faculty. And we’re starting to see a little bit of that happening, and that’s an area that the learning management platforms, as well as the AI platforms, should be working on a bit more actively. In the meanwhile, we’ve got a lot of concerns coming up and having discussions with students, working with colleagues, and coming up with the best institutional responses, but sometimes it’s going to have to go a bit further than that, I think, to resolve some of these new challenges, because both sides of this are racing. and I work with AI quite a bit, and every time I go on social media, I get ads for these things that can do all the work for me in my courses, where I just give them some money each month, and it will do everything and guarantee that I got a high grade with an extremely low chance of being caught doing that. So students are faced with a lot of temptation, and to the extent to which we can build relationships, that will help.

Kathleen: Yes, and I think to your point, our committing to staying on top of how things are escalating and how platforms are becoming increasingly sophisticated, or, dare say, elusive when it comes to detection, etc., I think our commitment to staying on top of that is paramount. We have to know what we’re dealing with here in order to even have a hope of designing assignments and learning experiences that can circumvent that. So it’s daunting. I think I would find me tedious if I came on here [LAUGHTER] and I thought I had all the answers. I do not, but I do know that groups of folks getting together who are committed and passionate and knowledgeable and curious, I think us figuring it out together, we have a far greater likelihood of achieving what we’re hoping to, but it is daunting, it is. I would never suggest otherwise. For me, the relationship piece is huge, and the way I can structure reminders about what’s expected, whether it’s reiterating PLOs up to and including ethics. There’s a lot of talk about ethics and our shared responsibility for instilling a deep sense of professional ethics, research, methodological ethics, personal ethics, personal integrity. Where does that live in our curriculum? Which goes back to the original thought here that we have to take a look at the ways in which AI is impacting our fields, our teaching, our assessment, and do what we can to be proactive and review, refine, revise our curricula, our assessment practice, in a manner that will empower students, because if we don’t, they are vulnerable to what we didn’t teach them, what they didn’t get out of their learning experience during their time with us. And so it’s mission critical. There’s nothing more important than saying, “Okay, I need to know, as a teacher in field X, I need to know how AI is impacting my role as a teacher, but also my field, my discipline,” and if I can’t communicate that to students, if I’m not helping them navigate that with me, that’s awkward. That’s a failed promise, and nobody wants that. I have such great faith in my colleagues. I’ve never worked with a more committed faculty, a more committed campus community. It’s beautiful. And so this is mission critical. We got to think about how we can best serve students by responding to this moment in a multifaceted, planful way.

Rebecca: One of the ways to respond that we haven’t directly addressed, but might be worth mentioning in this context is we can get insulated in departments, get insulated within our institution. But there’s a real need for the higher ed sector to work together to promote state/federal regulations around some of these things too. We talked about incentive for students to leverage [LAUGHTER] these tools to skate by, but there’s also a real incentive for these companies to keep finding ways to circumvent [LAUGHTER] any of the security in place. So I think we don’t talk about that enough, our role as educators and the ways that we can participate in moving potential regulations forward. I think that what I’m suggesting is like, we don’t really talk about that much, but it seems as though there’s a role we could play.

Kathleen: I think so. And I know I’m using this word a lot in this conversation, but I think it’s a multifaceted approach. So one of the appeals I would make is that this is an equity issue. Increasingly, some will have great access and exposure to AI platforms, and will benefit from that, and will learn how to use these platforms ethically in a manner that serves themselves and society well. Others will be boxed out of that for any number of reasons, up to and including socioeconomic status. So if we can have value laden conversations, in the best sense of the term, we can keep this personal in a weird way if we cannot lose sight of the human impact of technological advancement here, I think that’s the name of the game when it comes to advocacy. And then we all just work at scale, whether it’s organizational or societal. We influence the circles in which we operate to generate smart conversations about, “Hey, what do students need to learn? What do students need to be empowered to be able to do or not do with or without AI?” [LAUGHTER] For me, the advocacy piece takes the form of what can we do to stave off vulnerability, either at the individual or organizational level, and for the individual level, it’s often on behalf of the students. How can we advocate on behalf of students? So, I don’t know if that fully answers your question, but I see a lot of things structurally, and I see different scales and different facets, different points of entry, if you will, for the conversation. And so equity would be one of my points of entry for the advocacy piece.

John: And as we’re all wondering, when we’re talking about AI, what’s next?

Kathleen: That’s a great question. I’m going to just pop that into ChatGPT, if you don’t mind, I’m just going to “what’s next.” [LAUGHTER] Oh, boy. Honestly, I think connecting with more and more folks and staying connected and having the conversations and taking a deep breath and figuring it out together. I think that’s what’s next. I think it’s about incremental change and incremental responses and just huddling up and doing what we can to honor the mission of the institutions we serve. That’s what’s next, I think.

John: It sounds like a great approach, and I think we need to do a lot more of that. Thank you for joining us. And we’re looking forward to that next conversation.

Kathleen: That sounds lovely. This was so delightful. It was really a treat to talk with you both. Thank you.

Rebecca: And we’re looking forward to the next time to huddle up, for sure. [LAUGHTER]

Kathleen: Likewise, thank you.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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439. AI Pre-Mortem

Many faculty, administrators, and students often become caught up in the potential benefits of new technology, but do not always consider the long-term consequences. In this episode, Rebecca Winthrop joins us to discuss a report summarizing the long-term benefits and risks associated with student use of generative AI.

Rebecca is a Senior Fellow and Director of the Center for Universal Education at the Brookings Institution, where her research focuses on education globally. Rebecca leads the Brookings Global Task Force on AI in Education and co-leads the Family Engagement in Education Network. In addition to her work with many other global education initiatives, Rebecca has served as the U.N. Secretary General’s Global Education First Initiative’s Technical Advisory Group and served as co-lead for the Learning Metrics Task Force with the UNESCO Institute of Statistics. Rebecca is also a lecturer at Georgetown University and, with Jenny Anderson, the co-author of The Disengaged Teen: Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Many faculty, administrators, and students often become caught up in the potential benefits of new technology, but do not always consider the long-term consequences. In this episode, we discuss a report summarizing the long-term benefits and risks associated with student use of generative AI.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Rebecca WInthrop. She is a Senior Fellow and Director of the Center for Universal Education at the Brookings Institution, where her research focuses on education globally. Rebecca leads the Brookings Global Task Force on AI in Education and co-leads the Family Engagement in Education Network. In addition to her work with many other global education initiatives, Rebecca has served as the U.N. Secretary General’s Global Education First Initiative’s Technical Advisory Group and served as co-lead for the Learning Metrics Task Force with the UNESCO Institute of Statistics. Rebecca is also a lecturer at Georgetown University and, with Jenny Anderson, the co-author of The Disengaged Teen: Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better, which we talked about on an earlier episode of the podcast. Welcome back, Rebecca.

Rebecca W.: Thank you. It’s great to be back.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are:… Rebecca, are you drinking tea with us today?

Rebecca W.: I, of course, am drinking tea. I believe this is my third podcast with you, so I have it in hand. It’s Bengal spice herbal tea, and it’s delicious.

Rebecca: That sounds quite nice.

John: it does. I just have an English breakfast tea today.

Rebecca: Just?

John: Yep, the standard Twinings English breakfast tea.

Rebecca W.: Simple, classic.

John: Yes.

Rebecca: You can’t go wrong.

Rebecca W.: Yes.

Rebecca: I have a Scottish afternoon tea, John.

John: One of your favorites.

Rebecca W.: What is Scottish afternoon tea?

Rebecca: It’s a little bolder than an English breakfast.

Rebecca W.: Okay? It’s like, wake you up, keep it going.

Rebecca: It is.

Rebecca W.: All right. Love it. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: It’s been a long week…[LAUGHTER]

John: Just today alone.

Rebecca: It’s been a lot of Fridays today.

John: So we’ve invited you here today to discuss your Brookings Report on A New Direction for Students in an AI world: Prosper, Prepare, and Protect. Can you tell us a little bit about the study and why it is described as a pre-mortem, which I thought was a wonderful term for this. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca W.: So, we at Brookings thought that we should get ahead of generative AI in students learning and development as it is rolling out and collectively, we all know that there is a parallel movie here with social media that did roll out to students into their bedrooms and classrooms [LAUGHTER] without much attention from people who work with and care for kids, be they parents or coaches or teachers or school leaders. And this time, we really wanted to make sure that all of those communities were at the table. And so the idea was, let’s not wait for five [LAUGHTER] or maybe six, seven years until all the evidence comes back from all the randomized controlled trials, and frankly, after social norms have been ossified, to assess how generative AI may or may not impact students’ learning and development. So let’s move, quote, unquote, the autopsy forward to just see where we’re at and ask the question, “Are we heading in the right direction currently in terms of generative AI implementation?” And we looked at the risks and the potential risks from what we know about student learning and development and how AI is rolled out, and we looked at the benefits and the potential benefits, and that was what we called a pre-mortem.

Rebecca: So part of the study was a Delphi panel. For those that are not familiar with this approach, can you describe how a Delphi panel works?

Rebecca W.: You bet. So first, let me tell you what we did. It was a year of research, and we convened a very large global task force with a number of working groups. Hundreds and hundreds of people were involved. We have data from across 50 countries, and we looked at the literature that is emerging fast and furiously, including reviewing over 400 studies, and we spoke to parents, students, educators, education leaders, technologists, who were in schools on the ground about what they were experiencing. And then the last thing we did was, as you said, a Delphi panel, which is a methodology that is very good for forecasting and is useful when a field is new or undeveloped or doesn’t have clear rubrics or guidelines or principles, which is the case we are in now, and it consists of gathering a very diverse mix of experts and running them through a series of very structured questions. So those were the three main things we did to gather data to assess this question, “Are we on the right track in terms of generative AI rollout for primary and secondary students’ learning and development?”

John: And the report provides a lot of discussion of potential benefits as well as potential harms. Let’s start with the more positive thing first. In what ways might generative AI be supportive of student learning and perhaps improve some of the equity that we are not always seeing in our educational system.

Rebecca W.: So we found a lot of potential benefits that were often from very strategic intentional narrow uses of generative AI. In the report, we list our top six alongside the top six risks. And the benefits are things like helping bring kids who are not participating in the teaching and learning process into the teaching and learning process. You mentioned equity, John, so one of my most vivid examples of this is from work to support Afghan girls who, once they reach secondary school, are banned in their country from going to school. And there’s a whole initiative with Afghan diaspora educators who are using AI to create little mini lessons [LAUGHTER] that go by whatsapp on their cell phones to help girls keep going to school, basically, at home, and that is an incredible use case. Now this isn’t AI doing this alone. It is educators who are using this as a tool to help deliver this content that is also adaptive. That’s one example, a very large example that all over the world, people mentioned, especially educators, is saving teachers time. Teachers are overburdened in virtually every country [LAUGHTER] in the world, and there is a lot that generative AI can do to really remove some of the mundane tasks, or at least make them much more efficient, and teachers find that incredibly helpful. It could be admin paperwork. It could be trying to also use AI to improve their lesson planning or materials for students such as, “I have three different grade levels in my eighth grade classroom, can you give me this [LAUGHTER] for the three different reading levels my kids are out so they can all access it and succeed and grow.” So that was really useful. I will put an asterisk next to that one, because many teachers also said, “I hope my managers, be they school leaders, be they more actually, school board [LAUGHTER] leaders, don’t find out how much time I’m saving, because then they’re going to give me double the workload.” So this saving teacher time and freeing them up to do new, more relational, more interesting, more caregiving, more exciting, teaching and learning activities with their time only holds if teacher workload remains constant. There is also a wide range of other ways in which people are experimenting with generative AI, such as new forms of assessment, really being able to see where kids are stuck in their learning journey in a much more granular way, we think, has the potential [LAUGHTER] to be incredibly effective to help educators really help address where kids get stuck, things like helping neurodivergent kids, kids with learning disabilities, multilingual kids. These are the types of benefits that we found in our research.

Rebecca: Are the ways that you’re describing, the ways that AI is actually being used. Is there alignment between them?

Rebecca W.: Yes, Rebecca, you have hit exactly on the issue, which is we found that that is part of the ways in which the education ecosystem is ingesting and deploying AI, but that is not the main way in which young people are interfacing with generative AI. One of our findings was that for young people that live in communities with access to broadband and families with devices, so they may have a phone, they may have a laptop, they can get on the internet, they are interfacing with generative AI anywhere and everywhere. It’s in their Google searches, it’s on their social media platforms, it’s in their gaming platforms, and the line between technology for learning and education, technology for entertainment, and technology for communication have totally broken down. It’s all blurred. One young man told us last year, a high school student in the US, “Well, my school banned ChatGPT, but my friends, we just all go on to social media and get AI to do our homework that way. You can go on to Meta AI or Snapchat AI, and there are AI friends and companions. You can talk to them about how annoying your parents are or get relationship advice. And then you can take a picture of your homework and say, ‘Please write my essay for me.’ And then you can run it through a AI Humanizer that will insert some typos and then you turn it in.” So the thing we worry about most is young people being able to access commercial, often frontier lab AI chatbot models that are not designed for kids and not designed for learning. And I would say the same about AI friends and companions. Currently, by the way, one out of three teens in the US say they prefer talking to an AI friend or companion equally or more than talking to another human being. So this is a lot of kids, and it’s very early days in this technology.

Rebecca: That’s deeply troubling.

John: It is, [LAUGHTER] and one of the reasons why they may prefer that is AI systems tend not to be very judgmental, so if they say something that people might find offensive or troubling, it doesn’t have the same impact if they share that with an AI friend. And it is troubling because we’ve seen some really negative outcomes from some of those where kids were getting some really bad advice, and it’s led to some teens committing suicide.

Rebecca W.: Yes, and Common Sense Media has done a lot of work on this, and they say nobody under the age of 18 should be accessing AI companions just because of that, John. They are designed to be super, super friendly and to keep you talking to them. And everybody, by now, has heard the word sycophantic. [LAUGHTER] So if you’re a teen and you’re out there chatting with your AI friend and your mom makes you do the dishes, and you say, “Oh my gosh, my mom’s so annoying. She’s making me do the dishes, I just find it so unfair.” Your AI friend or companion is likely to say, “I am so sorry. You’re so misunderstood. That’s really terrible, and I’m here for you. Let’s talk about it.” Now, if you were to say the same thing to an actual human peer, they would say, “Dude, my mom makes me do the dishes [LAUGHTER] all the time. What is your problem?” And that right there is the core of the problem. If you repeat that type of social interaction over and over and over and over, that is how young people will develop their social interaction skills, their expectations for how others will treat them, and, frankly, their emotional resilience. Now learning, at the core of it, is about making mistakes and trying new things and taking risks. And if you are a young person who is developing socially and emotionally and your emotional muscles are to be agreed with all the time, we do really worry about what does that do for their ability to take feedback in the classroom, for example, [LAUGHTER] when they need to learn and they need feedback to grow.

John: And, as you note in the report, you’re also learning some social skills by interacting with other real people in the classroom, which is an important part of education, which gets lost when that’s being outsourced to interactions with AIs.

Rebecca W.: Yes, one of the things I keep repeating when talking about this report to people outside of education, in particular, is reminding them that young people are not little mini cognitive processing machines, and that classrooms do not only transmit knowledge from adults to youth. That is an important function, but by no means the only function. A lot of it is, how do you do perspective taking? How do you communicate with other people? How do you read a room? How do you self regulate if you’re used to getting your way all the time? Many things are happening that are really important inside classrooms. We only have to look back a couple of years to COVID when parents were tearing their hair out [LAUGHTER] and saying, please open schools back up and let me send my kids to school, to remind ourselves how important schooling is in kids lives for many reasons. Most kids were getting content at home through online learning, and that was not successful for most kids, again, because they aren’t little mini cognitive processing machines.

Rebecca: So we’ve talked a little bit about some of the harms, including the chat companions and not doing your own homework. [LAUGHTER] Are there any other harms that you’d like to highlight that come out in the report?

Rebecca W.: So we did find that, currently, the risks of generative AI, in terms of how it’s being rolled out, are overshadowing the benefits of generative AI for student learning and development, because the risks are of a very different nature than the benefits. They are undermining young people’s ability to think independently, to relate to other people, to take feedback, as we just said, and to have a trusting relationship with their teacher, which are all foundational to even harnessing and accessing the benefits that generative AI poses. So the risks are things like impairing cognitive development when young people over rely on generative AI, not to assist, but to actually do their thinking for them, they are not learning. We all know that children’s brains develop the way they’re used, and if kids are doing their work through a chatbot, their brains are not doing the work, and it’s like going to a gym. If they go to a gym and bring a machine that lifts the dumbbells for them, and they leave, they’re not getting stronger. It’s the same thing. So it’s not just that they’re skipping steps on their homework and being more efficient. It’s that they’re entirely missing out on developing independent, critical thinking skills. We also, as we discussed already with AI companions, are worried about the social and emotional development. We’re additionally quite worried about the decline in trusting relationships that we heard from many people we interviewed, and it’s across the entire teaching and learning [LAUGHTER] instructional core ecosystem. So educators saying “I’m not entirely sure if I trust that my kids are doing their own work.” 50% of educators say they don’t trust their kids work in the US, and that is very hard. Educators need to know if it’s kids work, because that’s how they know how to teach next and what to do if they don’t know where kids are struggling, they’re flying blind. But students also talk about generative AI undermining their trust of teachers. They don’t use that word, but they say things like, “my teacher doesn’t care about me because they’re using generative AI to give me feedback, and I don’t think my teachers are really doing their job because they’re using generative AI to make a lesson plan.” So even if teachers are using AI in a way that they believe could help kids, it’s not a bad thing to give students opportunity, for example, to get feedback on your written work before you turn it in, because maybe that’s an opportunity to improve. But if you introduce that in an environment where there’s minimal trust, the interpretation on the part of the student is that it’s lack of care and professionalism, and that degrades trust even further. We also heard from educators that parents were doing weird stuff too, like taking their students graded assignments that came home, running them through [LAUGHTER] ChatGPT and getting a different grade and confronting the teacher. There’s also educators saying students are challenging me on my expertise because they came up with an alternative answer in chat GPT and the authority by which they’re imbuing ChatGPT as a veritable source, they seem to equate it sort of equal with the teacher’s perspective. So it is troubling, … that part is very, very troubling. There is, of course, other concerns, which we can go into if you want, but we touched on them very briefly, around children’s safety, whether it’s data privacy, whether it’s emotional manipulation towards self harm, which is not everybody, of course, but there’s been enough cases to show that it’s not just a one off and quite dangerous. Again, those are often commercial, general purpose products, not designed for kids, not designed for learning.

John: And one of the problems that kids are faced with is, in their social media feeds, they’re getting ads nearly constantly about all the things they can do to have AI assist them with their schoolwork, or do the school work for them in ways that are not detectable. And one of the concerns that I’ve heard many students express is that they’re reluctant to not use AI if they think all their classmates are. So there is some adverse peer pressure in the current environment too.

Rebecca W.: Yes, this is a huge issue. I am spending a lot of time now out in communities, disseminating the findings from the AI task force report, talking at conferences, meeting state level leaders and talking at school districts in the US, but also schools. And a lot of time, I talk with students, alongside teachers, and students are really worried, young students, you know, I’ve talked to fourth graders, fifth graders all the way through 12th grade. They have a lot of opinions and perspectives. One of the things I have always been surprised at is how much they’re tracking what this technology is doing. And sure enough, in a classroom of 9 year olds or 10 year olds, multiple kids bring up this question of, “What am I going to do for a job. I’m in school to learn. I’m supposed to learn. But what if robots do everything in the world? What is my role? And how am I going to get money?” And then they bring up things like… this is often more middle school kids like, “We’re supposed to be going to school here to learn and get better. And I don’t understand the point anymore. What does it mean to go to school if a robot chatbot can do everything that I’m being asked to do, what does that mean for me? What am I supposed to do? Now this is very demotivating.” They’re very worried about getting dumber [LAUGHTER]and worried about society getting dumber. [LAUGHTER] One young fifth grader last week, who I was talking to at school assembly with students, was saying, “What if we all get dumber and then I have to go to the doctor’s office or go to the hospital and I get sick, and there’s a doctor who isn’t quite as smart as he or she should be, and is relying on AI, and they accidentally take my heart out…” [LAUGHTER] like only a young child could do. That probably is not going to happen, but the general trajectory [LAUGHTER] is one that we all are worried about. So, yeah, it’s a real concern, and I think the social narrative around AI is problematic. I speak with parents a lot, and one parent told me… I was out in California, I was in Silicon Valley… and she said, “How do I keep motivating my child? She’s in middle school. I drive her to school every day, and we drive past a very large billboard that says, ‘Don’t hire humans, hire our AI agents.’” And I said, “Yes, that’s not a helpful social narrative. I wish that the technology companies would abandon that, first of all as a actual goal, [LAUGHTER]… I think they should abandon that… and as a social narrative, because the truth is, of course, we are here. We live here. We will have many, many things that we can do that are productive. 95% of what makes me me, and what makes John you, you and Rebecca you, you is not documented online, [LAUGHTER] right? Only a sliver of our human experience is really documented online. And there’s great things that AI can do. I wish our social narrative would be about AI directed towards scientific breakthrough, solving climate change, solving the question of food insecurity, figuring out how to cure diseases like that. That’s the promise of AI, not let’s just make humans irrelevant. That’s such a ridiculous social narrative.

Rebecca: And although that’s disturbing, at the same time, I find it good that our young people are concerned about these things. [LAUGHTER] That shows some faith in the future, that we have young people who are concerned about where this might take us if we don’t intervene.

Rebecca W.: They’re very, very aware, and they want to talk about it. And I always urge schools and ed leaders to start thinking about not just AI literacy, but questions of, how does the online world work? We talk about, in our report, it’s holistic AI literacy. People throw around the term AI literacy and mean very different things. We don’t mean prompt engineering and we don’t mean necessarily more time on screens. What we mean is learning about how the online world works. And let’s start by having conversations in person around what is exciting? What are you worried about? And then working through things. There’s all sorts of moral dimensions. Can I break up with my girlfriend by using AI to write a breakup note? Can I write a happy birthday to my parent using AI? [LAUGHTER] Kids want to talk about this stuff, and it really is very interesting if you sort of take a step back and think about what it means for human relationships, thinking, experience, what makes us really human? So those are all important questions that we can start with before you ever introduce a chatbot.

John: Right now, the path of AI use is being determined by the big AI companies with very little oversight or very little direction, but in your report, you do provide recommendations on three pillars that may help redirect this in a more positive way. And the three pillars that you use are prosper, prepare, and protect. Can you give us a few examples of strategies in each of these categories that might be used to shift things so that that balance of benefits and risks are altered in a more positive direction.

Rebecca W.: Yes. Our goal was to say, “Are we on the right track?” And we discovered, “no, we’re not.” And then our goal was, “How do we bend the arc to make sure AI can enrich learning and harness it for benefits and mitigate the risks?” And there were three big pillars, as you said, John. One, under prosper is, “What can we do as educationalists in the system today to shift how our teaching and learning is done, so that AI cannot hack the student experience?” Underneath that, we talk about having co- design hubs with educators. This would be developers partnering with educators and education organizations and education unions who are going to lead the way on what are the use cases that me as a teacher in the classroom, or as a librarian or whatever your role is in a school and in the education system, could use generative AI in a positive way? We talk about making sure students are at the table. I really do think every district in the US, or every school, if districts don’t do it, should have a student AI Council. We had a student author as part of our writing crew, and she very much advocated for this, again, because kids are living it, using it, experiencing it, right alongside educators. And she advocated for young people, saying, “Look, we can review procurement contracts. This is our data, by the way. Hey, we can red team and beta test the AI products before they’re procured by our district. We can help educators say how we might get around an assignment, maybe shift it.” So ultimately, I think what we need as educators to have a very clear mix of pedagogical strategies that are AI aware. And what I mean by that is, if you can shortcut an assignment with an AI chatbot, don’t assign it. Do something else. This can be incredibly difficult and [LAUGHTER] time consuming for educators. It’s really hard at the higher education level if you have large classes, but in the K-12 space, it is doable, for sure. And AI assisted… Where can AI help? Is it neuro divergence? Is it assessment? Is it leveling reading materials. And then AI resistant… when should AI not have a role in educating young people, or rather, when and what types of experiences still need to be human to human? So that’s in the prosper pillar.

Rebecca: So we talked a little bit about how widespread these tools are, and how easy it is for students to get their hands on these tools, commercially or otherwise, it’s kind of hard to just like, turn it off. It’s everywhere. But many elementary and secondary school systems are reintroducing mobile device bans during class hours. Is this something that might be helpful? But then also, I mean, we know that there’s AI glasses and things like this too that are in the mix.

Rebecca W.: So, in our report, we definitely support the large social movement started, frankly, by parents towards digital health [LAUGHTER] and good digital hygiene practices, which includes less screen time for kids. Most kids in the United States spend hours and hours. I think the average is five or seven hours online each day. It might be much higher than that I’m forgetting, but that’s important. We support bell-to-bell cell phone bans in schools if there’s a pedagogical exception, especially for schools that might be rural and not have good science equipment, and they use their cell phone as a gyroscope and stick it in a plastic bag and do an experiment, spin it around, great, but it’s teacher controlled. And I do think we currently know that kids are using screens to access generative AI, but exactly to your point, Rebecca, this will change soon, and so a movement that is about screen free childhood will soon need to pivot to be a pro presence, pro human, pro interaction childhood, because generative AI will be embedded in our clothes and our glasses and our, I don’t know, our writing implements. Who knows? And maybe that’s better and can be used in very specific ways to help augment learning, but it also presents a whole new landscape of difficulty [LAUGHTER] in thinking about how you control that.

John: I am concerned about some of the new technology coming out. Meta glasses, in particular, are a little bit troubling, because right now they’re not being used that often by students, but I’m seeing more and more student posts on various forums asking, “Well, how can I use this?” And one of the challenges is, right now, they’re voice controlled, but they could always put things up on a screen that has answers to test questions or something that may not be easy for instructors to see, even if they are taking tests on paper, for example, and the fact that AI is multimodal makes it a bit more challenging. One of the issues I’ve run into is I’ve been using polling software for many years in my classes, and in the past, students would generally think about it and then pick their own response, but because they’re coming in on their laptops or on their smartphones, they can just take a screenshot of it and just have it automatically answered. Or there are so many browser plugins that if they’re using a laptop, it can automatically provide an answer to them with questions. And that type of instruction used to be really helpful in giving students and me feedback on how students are learning and their progress, and it’s become almost meaningless today because of multimodal AI.

Rebecca W.:yeah, it’s a big challenge, I think, for everyone, but particularly at the higher education level. And I imagine we will eventually evolve for a little period. There’ll be a brief period where we reach some equilibrium, and there’ll be other ways to gather that sort of feedback that you’re used to from the clickers that is no longer relevant, or maybe if classes are small enough, we’ll do just a lot more Socratic dialogs and oral presentations. I know the class I co-teach at Georgetown, we just moved from a final paper to a final oral exam, one hour with each student to present to us their final findings in a PowerPoint that we say you can use AI, because we won’t be able to really control that, but we’re going to grill them [LAUGHTER] and whether they know their stuff, and we can do that because it’s a seminar. Now, if you have 100 students or 60 students, it’s a much bigger challenge, and to me, the alternative seems to be going back to blue books, [LAUGHTER] and nobody is used to writing by hand anymore.

Rebecca: John, you have some experience with this, I believe. [LAUGHTER]

John: In my econometrics class this semester, I had moved away from paper exams during the pandemic, and I really appreciated the fact that having exams that were online or assignments that were online, and projects and so forth that were online gave students much more flexibility in terms of time, for the students who needed a little bit more effort to catch up. They could do that,… for students who process things a little more slowly. But I was finding that that wasn’t happening in the same way anymore, because the responses were all kind of looking like they were AI generated, and the projects that they were creating look very much like AI-generated projects.

Rebecca W.: How can you tell, John? I’m sorry to interrupt you in the middle of your story, how could you tell they looked like AI generated? I’m always curious what people see.

John: The main thing was that students were doing so much better on their written project than when I asked them questions in class. They sounded very professional quite often, in ways that the students generally didn’t in other forms of writing. And they were very polished, and it just showed a dramatic leap in their performance, and I talked to them a bit about it, and they said, a lot of us use AI because we’re concerned that everyone else may be. And I talked to them about all this on the first day of the class, and put the syllabus together, and I was thinking about moving back to blue book exams. An- I talked to them about it, and they liked the idea. And the blue book exams in particular are two stage ones. So they take it first individually, and then I grade them, but then the next class day, they take an equivalent exam in small groups where they’re explaining things to each other, and it’s a very positive experience. I had done this many times before, prior to COVID, before I moved to entirely project-based assessment, the work was dramatically weaker than it had ever been before. And so I talked to them a little bit about that, and they said, we’ve been relying on AI when we got stuck, because it’s just so much easier, and it’s a bit of a challenge.

Rebecca W.: It is, and that’s one of the things that we found also in our risks, such high levels of dependence. Young people are saying, I can’t start anything anymore without AI there to help get me going the minute you sort of are stuck, rather than pausing, thinking, doing the deep reflection, which is needed to deeply engage and embed what you’re learning, [LAUGHTER] You get a quick “Oh, wait, I think, let me just ask AI and it’ll help me get on the right track.” And it feels like it’s okay, because maybe you’re asking a friend, but really it’s stopping young people from doing deep learning.

John: The desirable difficulties that Bjork talked about, they’re bypassing those, and that’s where we get long-term knowledge retention and transferability. And it’s not happening in the same way that it used to.

Rebecca: It seems like we’ve snuck into that second pillar, “prepare,” a little bit here. It’s a nice transition. Just telling students to stop using AI or don’t use it seems like a very different circumstance that won’t work, compared to the conversations like you’ve been having with your students, where they’ve had the opportunity to try to do something that’s not using AI, and they’ve realized that they’re not able to do it, and realizing how much the AI has prevented them from learning the materials. So how do we convince faculty that we need AI literacy? How do we help students recognize that using AI in certain ways is not actually helpful to them. It might be helpful in the moment, but not long term.

Rebecca W.: Yeah. Well, again, as you said, if the first pillar is, let’s shift teaching and learning, that’s something we can control. The second pillar is, let’s make everyone in our education institutions prepared to do teaching and learning in an AI world, which includes, for young people, but also educators, “How does the online world work?” In a K-12 setting, we teach young people about biology so they learn about how the living world works, but we don’t teach every kid about how the online world works, even though they’re spending huge amounts of time there, not because we want them necessarily to all go be a computer scientist. We don’t want every kid to go be a biologist either. But when they know it’s zeros and ones and lives off of our ideas and our data, how it does pattern recognition, what it’s really good at, what it’s not good at, that is very empowering. Knowledge is power, and we know that the more people know about AI actually, the less they use it. So I think we need holistic AI literacy that’s about how the online world works. I think that simple bans, although I empathize with the educators who do them because they are trying to help their kiddos learn. Kids always get around them, I just don’t think they’re feasible. And then, on the flip side, open ended, you can use it no matter what type of a thing is definitely risky, because a lot of the tools are not safe for kids, as I’ve said, and not made for learning. So we really do need to have assignments [LAUGHTER] in a school setting that kids can succeed on and that force them to get knowledge into themselves. You need to get knowledge into yourself [LAUGHTER] in order to be able to use it, to be creative, to apply it. And I do think that everybody needs really some holistic AI literacy. It’s students, it’s families, educators, school leaders, we all sort of need to get ourselves up to speed. And I would say that to the skeptical leader, skeptical educator, that there’s a real urgency to this, because, just like John said, we will miss out an entire generation who will rely on AI too much, even though they might not think they are and actually not be developing their cognitive abilities that they need to thrive.

John: So the last pillar is “Protect,” which involves trying to regulate AI platforms so that they are used more effectively. And I know that is being done to some extent, at least in Europe, we haven’t seen a lot of evidence of that here. In fact, we just saw in late February, the federal government has declared one platform a threat to national security because the federal government wants to allow it to do illegal things without any constraints. In the current environment, at least, is it very likely that we’ll see much regulation of AI platforms at the federal level?

Rebecca W.: It’s very unlikely that we’re going to get significant federal level AI regulation. There does not seem to be hardly any appetite for regulating large tech companies at the federal level from the administration, however, I do think we will probably get regulation at the federal level around children’s safety. This is, to me, the one bipartisan issue that I see, whether you’re a Republican or a Democrat, we all have kids, and we all want our kids to be safe and generative AI is worrisome, AI companions are very worrisome. They should not be available and used by kids, and so there’s a lot of bills, actually, bipartisan bills at the federal level around regulating generative AI for kids, particularly AI companions. But there’s also a great deal of legislative action at the state level because of the gap in federal legislation, states are jumping in and trying to regulate, and that’s annoying for technology companies, because then they have this really complicated landscape of regulation that they’ve got to try to navigate and design products around. It would actually be much better and more efficient if they got together and supported sort of national safeguards and guardrails and appropriately [LAUGHTER] effective regulation at the national level, but they haven’t yet done that. So states are jumping in. So I actually think this is a parent-, student-, teacher-, driven movement, and state houses across the country are very, very concerned about it.

Rebecca: So I’m a parent, I’m an educator, I’m a member of the public. [LAUGHTER] What do I need to do to help change the trajectory of AI in a more positive direction?

Rebecca W.: Yeah, I think you can think of yourself as in concentric circles. As a parent, talk to your kids about it. We are developing a list of tip sheets for families and parents that talk about what families and parents need to know, and also key things to talk with your kids about around generative AI that is derived from our report, little, short, bite size, one pagers and on social media, because we found that this is a huge gap. People are looking at educators and students and leaders and jurisdictions and parents and families are left out of this conversation. So those are available at brookings.edu anybody can download them for free, and we’re beginning and there will be more posted throughout the next couple months. So that’s one. Two, as an educator, obviously you can lean into having conversations about generative AI with your students and really open up and see where they’re at. And if you don’t have an institution that’s leading on it, you could form your own little AI council with your students in your classroom for your class, like, hey, how should I handle this? This is my struggle. You guys want to learn. You’re feeling pressured by students like, nobody’s happy, nobody’s happy about this situation. It’s not like kids are like, this is the best thing in the world, and thank God, especially at the higher ed level, they’re there to learn, and they’re like, oh my gosh, but everyone’s using it, and then I’m going to get worse grades, and I want to go to grad school, so I need to use it too, or I want to get a good job. So I would have conversations at an educator level, and then as a citizen, there’s lots of groups to get engaged, and I would reach out to your local representatives, of course, especially at the state level, possibly the federal level, there’s groups like the EDSAFE alliance that have lots of briefings and opportunities to move these issues forward that you can get engaged at.

John: And we’ve also seen some large educational groups starting to push back. One area in particular is over the use of agentic AI, which can log into a course, complete all the assignments, and then log out all without any human intervention other than giving it the URL, your user ID, and password. And I know, the Modern Language Association and quite a few other groups have been pushing back on the AI companies to limit the use of agentic AI in learning management platforms.

Rebecca W.: I think this is just going to be the story for the next couple years, because the technology is moving so quickly. Again, young people and students are really creative, [LAUGHTER] and I’ve never seen a tech system that fully keeps them out. And so I’m sure there will be, and I’m sure it already is happening, technology companies who are working to make sure agents aren’t logging in for students, there’s real vested interest, especially in anybody doing online distance learning,[LAUGHTER] virtual learning, delivering certified learning courses that it isn’t they’re certifying the work of an AI agent. So I’m sure there’s work arounds. I’m sure there will be long cat and mouse games played for several years to come. And the question is, how much will that undercut our students ability to learn? It won’t undercut the most motivated and engaged kids, highly, highly, highly motivated and engaged kids, which is, as I know from my work with my colleague Jenny on our book, The Disengaged Teen, is a sliver of the K-12 student population. Those kids are going to rock. They are going to use AI to go farther and faster and grow. The issue is all the kids who are in passenger mode or busy or maybe managing work and trying to complete a degree. That’s the issue. How do we make sure those kids have a learning experience where they actually are doing the work they need to grow?

Rebecca: Yeah, I think the fact that many of us are overloaded, even as young kids these days, certainly motivates the desire to reduce workload in whatever way possible, or to remove the tugs on time. I wish there was a solution for that.

Rebecca W.: Seriously, I do think this whole thing of “You’re gonna get to a three-day work week and you’re gonna have so much free time.” It’s never happened before. We’ve had technology evolving. What I’m seeing in my work, at least, is I’m expected to do a lot more in a shorter period of time, and I think that’s what’s going to happen. So we have agency. We all are part of a system. So I do think we can exert agency over our own little ecosystem, and I have a lot of colleagues who I work with on my team who I can try to model, and if I’m not a good model, at least I can manage and tell them, “You should go home. This is too much. You can’t do it all. That’s okay. We’ll tackle it next week.” [LAUGHTER]

John: And that’s one of the possible outcomes of increasing use of AI, that we all become more productive and we decide we don’t need to spend as much time working as a society. Another possible outcome is it could end up lowering the return to education, resulting in increasing income inequality and perhaps more unemployment, with more and more of society’s benefits going to a small number of owners of these tech firms.

Rebecca W.: Yeah, and/or introducing… we talk about in the report, maybe there’s a new dimension of inequality around cognitive stratification, where the highly motivated, highly engaged, and the people who can afford the most expensive and therefore the most accurate and powerful generative AI models combined will be super humans, [LAUGHTER]and the rest of us who are maybe less motivated, less engaged and might not have access to even the top models will just not be able to keep up.

John: It reminds me a little bit of H.G. Wells’ The Time Machine where there was an elite that lived on the surface, but all the work was being done by the masses underneath the ground. And that’s another possible outcome of all this, which I’m hoping we’ll be able to avoid.

Rebecca W.: Yes, let’s all work towards avoiding that. [LAUGHTER]

John: and doing these types of pre-mortems before things become ingrained could really offer some benefits, because, often, as you said, these things become ossified, that we get locked into these directions, and it’s hard to change things once they become the norms.

Rebecca: Yeah, I’d like to keep dystopias to my fiction reading [LAUGHTER] as opposed to my lived experience.

Rebecca W.: That’s right, me too. That’s the goal.

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking, what’s next?

Rebecca W.: What’s next for my work is, with my colleagues, we are out talking to people, sharing our findings that came out. It’s about a month and a half ago now, and we are thinking about what is our next phase of research. I’m particularly interested in thinking about how generative AI can enrich learning, but not just learning outcomes, but how could it be used in a way, or not used, to make sure we have trusting, supportive, agentic [LAUGHTER] learning experiences for kids,

Rebecca: We always look forward to seeing what is next for you. Each of your reports is really helpful, and we enjoy talking to you. Thank you.

Rebecca W.: likewise. Thanks for having me on.

John: And thank you for all the work you’re doing in these areas that are so desperately needed.

Rebecca W.: Thank you.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing Assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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438. Where Did My Time Go?!

Faculty workload often feels overwhelming. In this episode, Kristin Croyle joins us to discuss strategies that can help us manage time and keep our workload under control. Kristin is a psychologist and the Dean of the College of Liberal Arts, Sciences and Engineering at SUNY Oswego.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Faculty workload often feels overwhelming. In this episode, we discuss strategies that can help to manage time and keep workload under control.

[MUSIC]

John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

[MUSIC]

Rebecca: Our guest today is Kristin Croyle. Kristin is a psychologist and the Dean of the College of Liberal Arts, Sciences and Engineering at SUNY Oswego. Welcome back, Kristin.

Kristin: Thank you so much for having me.

John: Thank you for joining us again. It’s been a while.

Kristin: Yes, it has, but it’s always one of my favorite places to be.

John: Today’s teas are… Kristin, are you drinking tea with us today?

Kristin: I am not, because I’ve already had four cups of tea today, and it’s time to stop for the moment.

John: We are recording in the late afternoon, so you’re excused. And Rebecca?

Rebecca: I’m celebrating the coming of spring with candy cane tea. [LAUGHTER] It’s a custom blend from a local tea shop.

John: …and I am just drinking a plain Lady Grey today.

Rebecca: So Kristin, we’ve invited you here today to help you figure out how to manage my time. [LAUGHTER] So why does it often feel like we don’t have enough time to do all the things we would like to be doing?

Kristin: Oh, what a good question. And I think we all have our own answers for that. I think there are a lot of contributors here. One is the role of faculty in general. So the role of a faculty member, and depending on the professional staff position, sometimes also the role of a staff member, is to just be awesome at many things. And that’s why we hire faculty and our professional staff, because they’re awesome at many things. And then we kind of say, well, we need you to do these six things, but go and be awesome. Do 100, that would be awesome. We would love it if you would do 100. We don’t know what those other 94 are, but we know you will figure it out. So in many ways, faculty are kind of working like small business owners, like the more you do, the better ideas you have, and the better the connections you make. And then you have a new project, and you see something that’s wrong, so you think, well, I need to change that too. So I’m going to start a committee or a task force to do this thing, and then that connects with something else. You have a great class that you want to add, and all and all of that contributed to a new research idea, in addition to all the other data that you’ve collected that you haven’t yet published. It is endemic to the role in many ways, and it doesn’t help that all of us are schooled to do this during our graduate training, and that at many universities, the Assistant Professor component of the career is also designed that way… not at all universities, but at many where the explicit task that is sometimes told to people is do as much as you can, as well as you can, and then we’ll see if that is high enough for tenure. I certainly hope that is not the feeling here. I hope that our expectations are more explicit, but basically we develop a culture in which our roles are ever expanding, and they’re ever expanding in ways that are often really exciting. So there are reasons to keep saying, “Oh, that’s a great idea. I want to do that,” and just keep adding on top, on top, on top. So it almost feels against our natures and against our institutional well being to try and pull that back, which leads to many of our most excellent faculty and staff being chronically, desperately overextended.

Rebecca: I think she’s been spying on us, John.

John: And while there may be things that we really enjoy doing and really love doing, we often will look at our calendars [LAUGHTER] and find that more things have been added to our calendars by people other than us on virtually every day, it seems. So what can we do to keep our schedules manageable, so we actually have time to do all those wonderful things that we’d like to be doing or that we’re being asked to do.

Kristin: Well, I’ll also add to that, that even when you have these wonderful, fabulous ideas, there is a bunch of stuff in the middle of that that is super boring and irritating to do to get you to the wonderful idea. Really meaningful service is a good example of that. If someone chooses to step up as department chair, they may have amazing ideas about how to move their department forward and support their faculty and students. And in the middle of it, you got to deal with all the student complaints which are important but a huge hassle. You got to turn in the schedule, which is important and a huge hassle. You got to deal with somebody angry because their office has flooding or collapsing or something, which is important, but a huge hassle. So not only is it other people, but it’s also the actual daily work, even when you’re getting to the awesome stuff, is a big hassle. So what can we do? What can we do to keep our schedules under better control? It’s a great question that all of us ask ourselves… sometimes, like many times a day, how can I get this under better control? One thing that I’ve certainly seen that is different in academia than in some workplaces is that faculty sometimes think of themselves in such strictly academic terms that they don’t recognize the amount of control they have over their time, and they don’t use specific strategies to try and control their time. So for example, it’s a common practice to use time blocking for many people, where you say, ”I’m going to need some focus time to work on this. I’m going to need focus time to work on that.” And I know that months in advance, so I’m going to, I’m going to time block in my schedule, hold these times as special to do this special work. That is very common in some settings and less common for some faculty to do. In our current environment where calendar sharing is much more common, it’s a much easier technological thing to do now. There are certainly a good number of faculty that I work with that I know don’t use their electronic calendars for anything except the occasional meeting invite, which makes it look like that they’re available to do all these other things any other time, and can lead to things like meeting invites appearing at times that are not convenient for them, where they have other commitments, where they might feel pressure to say yes, that if they had exercised some control at the beginning of the semester, those invites might not have appeared. So, some kind of techniques that are very commonly used in some settings or by some people that are really successful include things like identifying focused work time for projects that you need focused work on. So, for example, if you’re tenure track, particularly at the assistant professor level, and you know that it’s very important for your tenure standards that you get some stuff published, blocking off time on a weekly or even daily basis, specifically to work on your research, not to meet with students, not to do grading, not to do committee work, but specifically to work on your research, and keeping that time on your calendar blocked is a good strategy to use, and once you kind of get used to that, you can use it for the rest of your career. Another possibility is setting, for yourself ,strict guidelines about when you are willing to do certain things. Some of us know that we work best on certain types of projects at certain times of day or at certain times during the week. I know, for example, that I do better focused project work at the end of the week than I do at the beginning of the week, because at the beginning of the week, my head is all full of the other stuff that I haven’t done yet that kind of was building up over the weekend, and I was trying to ignore it, but it kind of all comes rushing out of me in the first few days of the week. So I am better at focused work at the end of the week, so I tend to block my time at the end of the week for focused work, but I include time at the beginning of the week for catch up, because those things are on my mind. Similarly, setting boundaries and these vary by the person for what is effective, like, I’m going to check my email twice a day. As dean. If I did that, bad things would happen. So I definitely don’t do that, but [LAUGHTER] it can certainly work in other settings: setting clear guidelines with your students that unless you are actually having an emergency and you need a response from me, I typically take about 24 hours to respond during the work days, and I don’t generally respond on the weekends. Setting up those boundaries can help you to maintain more sense of control over your schedule. And then another piece that I see some faculty using in a very sophisticated way, but others, not at all, is to time yourself for specific teaching tasks so that you have a clear and fairly accurate estimate about how long something is going to take you to do in your pedagogy, and then take that into account when you plan your syllabi. We have some English and Creative Writing faculty that know how long it takes them to grade and give feedback for different lengths of assignments. So if they say, “Well, I’ve got 60 students this semester, and if I’m going to give this assignment and this assignment and this assignment, it’s going to take me this long to grade, how am I going to work that into my schedule? Perhaps I should modify this other assignment so that there is time to get the students the feedback that they need.” I know, for example, that it takes me about three hours a day to keep up on my email, and if I don’t have three hours one day to do it, it’s going to take me six hours the next day. So I try and build in some time in the early morning or late, late afternoon, hopefully not in the evening, to do some of that catch up. But as a new assistant professor, I regularly planned things in my pedagogy that I didn’t realize were going to take me like 100 hours to do. You know, the first time you try a really great project, you’re like, “Oh my gosh, that took so long. Was the student learning worth it?” And planning that into your syllabus and saying, “You know what, that project is awesome, and it takes me a huge amount of time. This other project… also awesome, much more efficient for me, similar student learning. Perhaps I should go this direction instead.” So the theme in general is realizing that you have some control, and taking the control early, proactively, at the beginning of the semester, at the beginning of the year, instead of realizing that you’re completely drowning by week six in the semester, and seeing what you can do to exert control then. It’s never too late to try, but in advance, you end up with a much greater sense that you’re not drowning in work, because once you hit that stage, it’s difficult to get anything done sometimes. What do you two think? What has been helpful to you?

Rebecca: I’ve definitely used the strategies that you’re describing, and have taught students to use those as well. I think that as my role has changed over time, I’ve had to modify those strategies. So it was easier earlier on in my teaching career to be able to dedicate a day or a half a day to research or to not have meetings, but I find it a lot more difficult to block large blocks of time, and instead find it’s probably more strategic to block smaller amounts of time that are the length of a meeting. So then it just looks like you got meetings on your calendar at various times. But that can allow for some catch up, or to do some of the other things that we’re trying to do. So I’ve noticed I’ve had to change that a bit. I still have one day blocked as if I’m going to get projects done. But the reality is, it’s not realistic, and it needs to probably flex and change. [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: Yeah, my block, because I have other people that sometimes schedule meetings for me as well that can see what the block says. The block says, “try not to have meetings.” And there’s still meetings that appear, but less during that time than would have otherwise. What works for you, John?

John: Nothing this year, it seems.

Kristin: …nothing works. [LAUGHTER]

John: As an example, on Monday, I have four hours of classes, and I had four and a half hours of meetings scheduled, and then I did have some time blocked out, so I’d have a little bit of time to do some preparation that I wasn’t able to get done in the weekend, and that got filled by a commitment that I really needed to fulfill. So I’ve been struggling with that all year, and especially this semester. I’m not sure why this semester seems to be so much work. I generally don’t block out time on my calendar, but I probably need to do it more. But I did try it this week, and I still ended up with meetings scheduled in each of the time slots that I had blocked out as preparation time. And it was only two this week, but both of them ended up being taken up by other meetings.

Rebecca: One other strategy that I think can be useful, especially if you’re trying to schedule meetings between faculty and staff, is that we have different schedules. Staff and administrators tend to work on the hour and half hour, and faculty work on the teaching calendar when classes are offered, which are at odd times. So trying to schedule meetings that are during a distinct class period can be helpful because then it keeps everyone on the same schedule. It’s also a good strategy for blocking your calendar because it looks like you’re in class. [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: That’s really good. Another piece that I think is important to mention, is setting the top priorities. So as I mentioned, for folks that are on the assistant professor tenure-track stream, it’s usually much easier to stay on top of the teaching because you got students expecting every day that you have something prepared and that you will get their graded work back to them and like they are knocking on the door if you are not prepared. So for assistant professors, we often recommend set your research as your top priority. It’s not necessarily because it’s the most important. It’s often because it is the most difficult to work in because there aren’t external contingencies pushing people to stay on top of it. So block time during that phase of your career to keep your research going. Even a common recommendation is to try and write for at least 30 minutes a day. Block those 30 minutes so that you get something written, not because it’s the most important, because it needs to be your top priority because of the other contingencies pushing on you. So at different phases in your career, it’s still important to look at what you’re spending your time on and say, “What is my top priority?” and block the time for that. So there’s some good research that suggests that if you spend a minimum of 20% of your time a week on the things that you find most rewarding in your job, it will reduce burnout. So at some phases in your career, you can look at what you’re doing and say, “You know, the most exciting thing for me right now is coming up with the big ideas and helping to push them forward, or it is engaging in the scholarship of teaching and learning, or it is meeting directly with students and mentoring them,” but your top priority, your own career top priority, and block that time to make sure it happens, and then let everything else fill in around it. So yes, again, taking control, but taking control for the things that you know need to get done that as the semester goes on, if you don’t take that time to set those priorities and figure out how you’re going to make progress on them, all the other immediate contingencies around you will push and push and push and get you to do the urgent thing that is not as important because someone is asking you to do the urgent less important thing when you really need to do the more important thing.

Rebecca: It can be helpful to kind of evaluate those things on a weekly basis too, at the beginning of the week setting aside 10 or 15 minutes to just establish what the priorities for the week might be.

Kristin: Excellent. So do you have a weekly meeting with yourself?

Rebecca: I do.

Kristin: Excellent. It’s a great practice.

Rebecca: Otherwise, I don’t. I can’t remember what I’m supposed to do. It’s like a reminder. [LAUGHTER] I do it on Mondays like it’s a reminder of what I need to be doing for the week.

Kristin: Yes, doing a weekly meeting where you review your priorities for the week, what has been done, what hasn’t been done. It’s a great recommendation. It can help you really move faster on the projects that you care about. Now I’ve heard recommendations, which I don’t agree with, that you do this at the time that makes the most sense to you. So if you’re worrying about it on Sunday night, you do it on Sunday night. I just think that’s a terrible idea personally, [LAUGHTER] because then it just opens the door for it to infringe even more and more on your personal time. I think you should do your weekly meeting during work time, because it’s work, but to each their own.

Rebecca: Actually, I find Friday afternoons is optimal. I just happen to teach at that time, so I don’t always get it done, but I find if I do it at the end of the week, then I can set the priorities for the beginning of the week and just be able to focus from the start, rather than trying to scramble to figure out how the week should start. [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: I like Friday afternoon also, and I’ll tell you why, specifically. If there is something on my list that I don’t know how to handle or what direction I want to take. I’ll make a special note of it, and then I will tell myself “I don’t know how to handle this,” and then I’ll just tuck it away. And there’s all kinds of lovely research in psychology about insight and the role of rest and rejuvenation in that. So I find if I tuck it away in the back of my mind, and I really try not to think about it. I may have an answer on Monday after I’ve had a couple nights sleep, and the path forward may appear after letting it sit for a bit.

John: For me, what tends to happen is I go to sleep worrying about those things, and I wake up three hours later, still worrying…

Kristin: …also worrying

John: …and I get up and [LAUGHTER] start working again because I’m not able to get back to sleep.

Kristin: Ok….

John: So I’m not very good at this.

Kristin: Do you know about writing a note to yourself?

John: I generally just go to a computer…

Kristin: oh John, well…. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: Don’t let the blue light hit you.

Kristin: So for folks who struggle with insomnia for reasons like that, and they really want to sleep more, a good technique is to keep something they can take a note on by the bed. So that could be, if you’re not with a partner who’s going to wake up, you could do like an audio note on your phone, or just write a note and say, “this is the thing,” because it will keep some people up, because they’re afraid if they go to sleep, they’ll forget how important it was. So if they write it down, they feel like, now I know I’m not going to forget that, and then they’re able to go back to sleep. But yeah, I wish you more sleep [LAUGHTER] in your future, John.

John: But going back to the issue of calendars, one thing that seems to have happened is that now that we use Zoom for more meetings, it seems to be a bit easier for people to schedule meetings, and they tend to do it on the hour or on the half hour, typically for an hour back to back…

Kristin: …to back to back to back….

John: …with other meetings with no breaks in between. At least when we used to meet in person, there had to be some time for walking across campus, and we’ve lost that.

Kristin: So one suggestion, but it would have to be something that we agree together, is that we’re going to hold those hour-long meetings, or those 30 minute meetings, to 50 minutes or 25 minutes. Say, if you got an hour long meeting on the schedule, you really mean it’s going to be 50 minutes and it only takes one person… It really only takes one person in the meeting to say, “you know, as a practice, let’s just start doing this, because we all need time to take care of our bodies and to stand up and walk around and maybe make it to the next meeting if it’s across campus or whatever.” It really only takes one person to get that started, and we can start moving it along. But it’s a common practice in some settings. You know, it’s been a common practice in medical settings for many, many years. The therapy hour, for example, is typically a 50 minute hour, although now that there’s more Zoom, it’s much more flexible in terms of shorter even, but yes, it’s a great point. Those of us who were working in higher ed during the pandemic who were in meeting heavy roles, some of us remember the nine hours of meetings days you’re hoping that if you just go off camera and mute yourself for a little time, you can run and grab some food and come back. Let’s not do that again. Let’s just not do that again. It’s not good for us.

Rebecca: Another strategy is to stick to the class schedule, because there’s built in breaks between classes. Voila, 15 minutes between classes. It’s already scheduled, at least that’s the time between ours right on our campus. It’s a common practice.

Kristin: That’s a great idea. Can we talk a little bit about how great faculty are at doing things with excellence and how that becomes a problem?

Rebecca: Yes.

Kristin: I know you folks are asking the questions, but I think this is also a theme that interferes with having control over your time, that we are socialized and we really individually value very strongly being really good at our jobs. We’re excellent at scholarship. We prioritize our students and our pedagogy. We try and make our universities and our professions and our communities stronger through service, and we want to do it all at the A plus level.

Rebecca: It doesn’t help that we’re all very curious too, which is why we probably ended up in academia in the first place, right?

Kristin: Yes. And it also doesn’t help that many of our faculty and staff are able to do all those things at the a plus level, if you take them individually, and I’m using the grade because we’re in a grading culture, and we were socialized in a grading culture. If I were to say to many, many of our faculty and staff, “Here’s this one issue at the university, make it amazing,” and we could release them from everything else. They could do it. They could absolutely do that. In fact, I think I could take 15 different things and give them to most of our faculty, in their research, in their teaching, or in their service, and say, “make this amazing,” and they could do it. And knowing you have the capacity is not the same as knowing that you have the time. And it’s a very difficult step for people to give up the idea that they’re going to be excellent at everything they do all the time, because that is just not realistic in academia. It’s not realistic in life. It’s not realistic in any setting, except maybe in graduate school, where that was your one job to be really good at everything they were asking you to do.

Rebecca: It’s hard to imagine someone saying, “Hey, I need this problem solved, but I just need it at a mediocre C level.

Kristin: We need a mediocre, barely adequate solution. Can you please take care of that?

Rebecca: Yeah, that’s hard to digest. [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: It is.

Rebecca: I’m sorry I can’t do that. [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: But, I think that that is something that our most excellent people come to realize ,that they can only do some things at excellence and the rest is going to be okay, and that that’s okay, because there isn’t enough time in the day to do everything at excellence, and if you continue to push yourself to do that, you’ll be sorely disappointed and feel completely out of control of your time, make yourself sick, and you still won’t be able to do everything excellent. So it’s more a matter of acceptance, like “I accept some of the stuff I’m going to do is going to be adequately mediocre, because that is all that I have time to do here, and that is really all the situation requires. And I’m going to do these other things really excellently.”

John: Which again, requires that sort of reflection that you were talking about earlier to determine what is important and what is worth the effort.

Kristin: Exactly. I know it’s still hard to like, let it go. It’s okay. Not everything has to be excellent all the time.

Rebecca: I think that’s interesting to put next to the idea, which we’ve talked about before, of saying no, and how saying no can be really difficult, especially if it’s something that you’re interested or excited about. What are some strategies we should use when we’re asked to take on more work than is feasible? I’m just asking for a friend. [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: Let’s see if we can come up with five real quick and on the fly, okay? Five things to do if somebody asks you to do something, in addition, recognizing that there is a huge caveat when there are some people that when they ask you to do something, it’s your job to say yes. So as Dean, if the President asked me to do something, it is actually my job to say, “Yes, I will do that thing” and figure out how to get it done. So not everybody can say no to everything. I may say, “You know that deadline is, oh, that’s a very tight deadline. I may have to put these other things off so I can hit that deadline.” So five things that you can do if somebody is asking you to pick up something new. One, you can give yourself 24 hours or longer. You can say, “Well, that sounds like an interesting opportunity. Let me think about it for…” and ask for at least 24 hours. Depending on what the commitment is, you could ask for longer, but at least 24 hours before you say yes, even if you want to say yes, just for your own to give yourself some time to reflect. So that’s one. A second one would be, ask somebody else for advice, go to a trusted mentor, a colleague, and say, “You kind of know the things I’m working on, I’m being asked to do this other thing. I’m not really sure how important it is. What’s your thought? Is this something I need to say yes to? Would it be politically important in this environment or would it be a really great opportunity I’m not seeing?” So go ask somebody else for advice, some kind of accountability buddy, for service, essentially. That’s two. A third one, if you’ve already given yourself 24 hours… done that first… if you want to say no, you can just say no. That actually is the strategy. You can say, “Well, thanks for that opportunity and for thinking about me…” like you can say it nicely… “but unfortunately, I don’t have time right now for that commitment.” I have people tell me no all the time as Dean, they say “I don’t have time for that,” like, “oh, okay,” and it’s my job to go find somebody else. A fourth one, let’s say that you don’t feel like you can just say no, but you want to say no, you’ve already thought about it. You talk to your accountability buddy, they’re like, “Don’t do that. You haven’t written anything this semester. Start writing something. Say no to this thing.” You could list out several of the commitments that you already have to remind the person who’s asking you, all the ways that you’re contributing, “because I’m spending my time on this and because of this, and we have talked before about how it’s important for me to prioritize this. Unfortunately, I’m not able to find the time.” So it’s not just a straight no. It’s more like, “I can’t say yes right now, because I am so awesome at these other things that I’m doing, so unfortunately… You could also, fifth one, suggest a couple other names. This is not passing the buck, by the way. This is recognizing that if you were the person that they thought of first, because you are awesome, you may know other awesome people that also should have opportunities. So it’s not about passing the buck. It’s about elevating people who may need to benefit from, have a great perspective, in order to contribute more to service or other projects. I’m sure you two both have other strategies. You want to give me another one?

Rebecca: John’s really good at saying yes.

John: Well,[LAUGHTER] I am good, though, at saying no if it’s something that needs to be done today or tomorrow. But what many people have learned to do is say, “Well, you can take two or three weeks to do this,” or “this is due sometime next month,” and when you’re given the chance to do something that you don’t have to do immediately, it’s easier to discount the future time [LAUGHTER] relative to the present time.

Kristin: What is that called?

John: In behavioral economics, it’s referred to as hyperbolic discounting, that we tend to put more pressure on immediate gratifications, and it’s always easier to postpone things into the future. And that tends to be something that I know, Rebecca and I have fallen into quite recently, [LAUGHTER] where we were asked back in December or January, if we’d give a keynote address for a group, and if it was something that was going to take place in January, I would have said no, because we do a whole bunch of workshops here, and Rebecca was working on some workshops on accessibility, but because it was in April, it seemed, well, we’ll certainly be able to find time between now and April, and April is …

Kristin: …but now, April is coming up.

John: …starting to approach, and at some point we actually have to do it. And so that’s the strategy, on the other side, of convincing people to do more than they really should be doing if they were weighing the costs and benefits more fully.

Rebecca: John successfully uses this strategy on me regularly. [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: So how do you get around this? [LAUGHTER]

John: We don’t. [LAUGHTER]We do end up doing too much.

REBECCA; We just do it. [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: So having a good idea of how long things actually take, yes, and it actually is helpful to me to literally think about my future self. How is this going to impact my future self? If I do these things right now, how is it going to impact my future self? If I don’t do them right now, how is it going to impact my future self? For example, if there’s something I really don’t want to do and I am feeling that kind of negative emotional state of avoidance, sometimes it is helpful to me to think about being kind to my future self by doing it right now, so that my future self doesn’t have to deal with both doing the thing I don’t want to do and whatever consequences there were because I didn’t do it right away. Rebecca, do you have other ideas for saying no?

Rebecca: I’m not a great no sayer, but some of the strategies I use include asking questions about the thing that will take time to respond to [LAUGHTER] to buy time without directly asking for time. A passive aggressive strategy. And then another strategy I sometimes use is, if it’s like a supervisor asking for something, then I usually schedule time to say, “Hey, here’s some things like, what’s the priority?” It’s to kind of get the other stakeholders that might be involved in the things that I’m working on, to find some priorities, because there might be a way that I would prioritize it, but I usually try to make sure it’s in line with some of the other folks that might be impacted by those decisions.

Kristin: So I would disagree that your strategy of asking questions is passive aggressive, because oftentimes, if somebody is asking you to partner on something, they’re asking you because of your expertise. And so if you’re asking questions, it helps them to think through more the kinds of things that they’re asking you to contribute to. So it can help them understand whether or not you’re the right partner. It can help them understand what the real time commitment they’re asking for, and as a not sneaky strategy, but a self-management strategy, if it’s something that you’re thinking about right now, like they ask you in an email, for example, and you read it right then, and you have a response right then, but you kind of want to think about it and slow down the discourse, you can feel free to write that email right away, while it’s on your mind and it’s fresh, delay send it for 24 hours so it slows down the cycle a little bit. Allows everybody to think a little and, if it’s not an urgent thing, most people don’t respond to it within 24 hours anyways, but it’s perfectly fine to slow down the conversation just a little bit, to give people a little bit more time to think about it, and to give yourself a little more time to think about your response.

Rebecca: I always ask about timeline and time commitment. I think those are two important things that are never presented as part of the ask, and are important to know.

Kristin: Excellent, often because they haven’t been thoroughly thought through. So when you’re asking about timeline and time commitment, it helps the asker to think through those things.

John: There has been some research, though, about time and time estimates, suggesting that people who are most productive tend to systematically underestimate the amount of time that task will take. How can we overcome that…

Rebecca: John…

John:… without giving up a lot of sleep? [LAUGHTER]

Kristin: Yerah, and what I love is that we all know that occasionally we can actually do things that fast, which just reinforces this bias of underestimating how much time something is actually going to take. We all have very clear memories of like, you have to do the big thing, and then something happened. You only had a tiny amount of time to do it, and you did the big thing, and it was amazing. So clearly that’s how long it takes you to do the big thing, when that is an exception and not the rule. So, for things that are regular tasks, I really do recommend literally timing yourself so that you understand how long it takes. There’s a really wonderful faculty member here that I have had to ask to do many things, because they are really wonderful, and they say no better than anybody else that I interact with, and part of it is because they’re really good at documenting time estimates. So I say, “can we work on this thing together?” And they respond and say, “Well, this is what’s on my list, and this is how long it takes me.” And it’s so compelling. Like, first I’m like, “Wow, that’s really impressive that you know those things about yourself,” but also my opinion of this person, every time they say no, just goes up and up and up, because what they’re sending me is these amazing things that they’re doing that I’m not aware of. All of these things, but also, the way that they’re doing these time estimates helps to protect their time as well, which is fully committed, by the way. But I will keep asking. They will keep telling me no, and I will continue to think how amazing they are all in this process. But yes, it’s very difficult.

Rebecca: I think that’s important to underscore, is that a lot of times people assume that saying no is going to make someone think badly of them or poorly of them in some way, but that often is not the case.

Kristin: That’s exactly right. Now, of course, there are ways to say no where, it will certainly make you look bad.

Rebecca: Yes, [LAUGHTER] that’s why you consult your accountability buddy.

Kristin: Yes. And I certainly have occasionally had people read my emails before I send and say, “Does this hit the tone I’m trying to hit?” And I encourage other people to do that sometimes too, just to make sure that you’re hitting the correct tone for the audience that you are sending it to. You don’t want to sound like you’re combative and that you are never open to new ideas, because, who knows, the next thing they ask about might be really amazing, and you really want to say yes to that. There was a book that we used on campus several years ago, Thriving in Academia, that has a great flow chart in it for taking on new responsibilities, and it basically takes you through the decision-making process. Here’s this new opportunity and maybe a new service opportunity or something. Is this something that you should really say yes to or no to? And I do find myself taking a look at it every so often. I’ve shared it with multiple faculty, and usually, of course, I end up looking at it when there’s something I want to do, but I don’t think it’s really worth my time. I’ll go through the flow chart and it says, “Don’t do it” and I’m like, “Ah, I knew I shouldn’t do it,” but it’s good to have multiple resources.

John: And it has some very good reasons for not doing things…

Kristin: Yes, it does

John: …through that flow chart. So it is really productive. We will include a link to that in the show notes.

Rebecca: I know that I like to work on a lot of different projects, as I’m sure you’re aware, but there’s also those middle things that we’ve talked about that are like, not super fun. I like to design a thing, and then I’m not always interested or excited about the final implementation of a thing. That’s like, the part I find most exciting is the beginning and the planning stuff that other people might totally hate, but that’s the part that I like. So pairing up with someone else can be helpful who likes a different part of the process, but procrastination can come into play if it’s a part that we don’t like, maybe, or that we have too much to do. How do we handle procrastination?

Kristin: Well, that’s a tough one, and one thing to think about is that procrastination is really an umbrella term for a lot of different behaviors. So, for example, if you just have a million things to do and you don’t get them all done, it’s really not fair to think that you are procrastinating. You’re just over committed. So there’s really no way to get everything done. So, let go of the guilt that you are a quote procrastinator because you’re not able to do all the million things that are on your plate. That’s one piece. But what if there are some things that you can really see that you are actively avoiding, like you really need to do these things, and you’re not getting them done, you’re choosing to do other things instead that are of less importance intentionally. So there can be a lot of contributors here, but one thing that can be helpful… you know, I really hate this phrase, but there’s a book and a concept that has gotten very popular called eat the frog, based on a Mark Twain quote about, if you eat a frog first thing in the morning, it’ll be the worst thing that you have to do all day, or something along those lines. [LAUGHTER] But it does kind of speak to when our energy and willpower are at our highest to do the hard thing first, before the negative feelings accumulate during the day and your energy depletion accumulates during the day, becomes harder and harder to do the hard thing that you’re avoiding. So trying to do something that you’ve been avoiding first thing in the morning can be helpful. Some people find it helpful… this might sound funny, but to kind of sneak up on it… like, here’s this one thing you’ve been avoiding… don’t think about it for a little bit and then just do it real fast to sneak up on it, so that it can short circuit the negative emotions around the avoidance that you just jump on it and get it done. Another thing that can be helpful is to just tell yourself you’re going to do it for two minutes, literally two minutes, not like two hours for this big project, just two minutes. And you can even set a timer if you want, because oftentimes the thing that we’re procrastinating, if you’re avoiding it and having those negative feelings, once you get even a baby step into it, those negative feelings start to dissipate, and the avoidance can drop way down, and it makes it easier to get into the task again. What have you found to be helpful?

John: One strategy that’s been proposed by behavioral economists, and I know Katie Milkman has written about this quite a bit, is the concept of temptation bundling, that if there’s something you’re doing that you really don’t enjoy, in addition to providing small blocks of times, reward yourself periodically, so that once you accomplish a certain amount of it, you do something else that you enjoy. And that’s a way of combining the unpleasant task with something that’s more enjoyable as a reward, and that seems to be helpful in encouraging people to get past those things.

Rebecca: One strategy for getting something to sneak up on you is to actually just put it on your calendar, like a little bit away from now, and then it’s like, “Oh, I have a meeting. Oh, I have to do this thing.” And then it’s like, “Oh, I have time scheduled to do this. [LAUGHTER] I guess I should do it.”

Kristin: A lot of the things that I work on are with lots of other people, and for me, I tend to be more motivated by social connection. So if there’s something that I’m really avoiding, I will often schedule a meeting, a literal meeting, because for one thing, we’re all working on this thing together, and it will get me moving, if, like, “Okay, it’s time to sit down. We’re going to figure out where we are in our timeline and take our next steps.” And even knowing I have that responsibility to these other people coming up, it will get me to do the thing before we meet. Now, those are not fake meetings. They’re not wasted. They are real things that are needed to move the project forward, but it gives me the motivation that I need to overcome that kind of avoidance barrier. And one piece I would also add is when I said, let go of the guilt. I’m serious, because feeling guilty about the thing that you’re not doing is not particularly helpful for most people, since it makes you feel worse, it can increase your avoidance. So some people are like, “No, I have to feel guilty, because it tells me how bad it is.” Well, that’s not how it works for most people. For most people, feeling worse makes you more avoidant.

John: And this is a topic we’ve talked about on an earlier podcast with Dean Karlan on commitment devices. And one of the issues that economists tend to focus on, again, is incentives. And the idea basically is you alter the costs and the benefits in some way, and one way is through peer commitments. That you know the social pressure of letting your friends down by not meeting with them when you’re scheduled or something like that, can be really effective. And I think at the time when we recorded it, Rebecca was going with a group of friends to the gym, and one time she didn’t go, so they all posted pictures from the gym without her there [LAUGHTER] and asked, “Where are you?” just as a little bit of peer pressure.

Kristin: just sent with care, not with guilt, yeah, sent with care.

John: And it’s something I talk to students about in terms of forming study groups where they agree to meet a certain time, and it’s much more likely they’ll actually do it when they have that peer pressure.

Kristin: Exactly, balancing those plates.

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking, what’s next?

Kristin: What’s next? Well, that’s a good question. So I am regularly in a quest to take greater control over my time so that I am spending it in a way that I think most benefits the college, because that’s my job and the faculty and the staff and students in the college. So what’s next for me is to continue to try and find the balance again, keep up my weekly meetings so that I can set priorities for myself and make sure that my time is being spent in a way that I think allows me to use the skills that I have, and doesn’t allow my time to be completely sucked up by things that are not the best use of my time for the benefit of the college. That was a long answer to say, keeping on, keeping on, trying to do it a little better every day.

Rebecca: Well, thanks’ Kristin. It’s always a pleasure to talk to you.

John: Well, thank you, Kristin. We really appreciate you joining us today and taking some of your time to do this with us.

Kristin: Absolutely. Thank you both.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing Assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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